The pencil-in-the-lady-parts is Jacqueline Chapman: Belly Dance with Jacqueline Chapman; classes, workshops, choreography, teaching video, and performance (cabaret, film, television and video)
Myths and Misconceptions
- Thread starter Brea
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Ecuabellydancer
New member
Well, in most of Latin American cultures dance has always been a huge part of social gatherings, and since I can remember I´ve seen my parents and other family members dance to merengue, salsa (oh, I have memory flashes of my parents dancing to disco music.. scary :lol
But now that you mention it, social gatherings among young people are becoming more "american" and there is not so much dancing going on these days :think:
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Andrea Deagon
New member
Hi folks. Dang, it looks like I missed the "archetypes and goddesses" part of the discussion and came in on the "holding a pencil with ..." part. Well, both are equally interesting, I guess ...
I just wanted to toss a few things into the mix.
Joseph Campbell has been an immense inspiration to people who have an interest in the world beyond the mundane and want tools to use and understand the resonances they feel with myths. In my mythology classes, he's the one author some of my students might already have read. Which is both bad and good.
Both he and Marija Gimbutas have a predilection for "universal theories," that is, finding ways in which a single framework can be applied to diverse things in order to make sense of it all. Which is great for us (modern Westerners), because the overarching framework is phrased in cultural terms we can understand, so it all comes out in our flavor.
I'll use a food metaphor (it's lunchtime) to express the problems with this: it's like going to the local K&W cafeteria to get your Mexican, Italian, Thai, Chinese, Afghani, Spanish, Brazilian, etc. food. It really all tastes sort of the same. To get any richness out of it, you have to go to the right restaurant. Where they do one thing and do it well.
In other words, go to the original culture to find the meanings of its myths. Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty is a scholar who has written about archetype, and she says essentially that by the time you have refined things to a nearly-universal archetype, it's bare, dead bone -- so vague it's meaningless. I agree. (Among feminist archeologists dealing with prehistory, BTW, Gimbutas's archetype-influenced work is sort of a joke because she has the same interpretation for just about everything, whereas their specific studies are suggesting a lot more variety in prehistoric beliefs in different communities.)
What most people working in comparative mythology would tell you is that what we call "archetypes" and treat as universal are actually cultural constructs specific to our time and place. We can shoehorn other myths into terms that fit our perspectives (for a perfect example of such shoehorning, see *Women Who Run With the Wolves*). But our archetypes are all about ideas we have constructed to reflect desires and tensions in our own cultures.
So there is no "Great Mother" archetype that spans cultures, but that archetype is important in our culture.
Problem with many archetypes is that they are based on ideas that reflect the prejudices and power structures of the mainstream. Every time belly dance is identified in terms of "Great Mothers" and so on, it puts us in the Victorian age when these terms were formulated. It diminishes the multiple talents of women (and the many potentials of this dance) and puts them in a category that is essentially easy to dismiss, because it is ascribed to a time that is past, a power that was lost, a limited cultural function (motherhood), and a reduction of feminine potential into their reproductive biology.
All the goddess stuff is ultimately undermining the ability of us as dancers to break out of the Victorian molds of disempowered childbearers and be heard for the many other things we want to say with our dance.
If we want to tell stories that weren't hashed out in patriarchy, we have to get past the idea that "Archetypes" necessarily lead us to truth.
But I have to say, I feel all archetypal sometimes too, when I dance. So what do you do with those archetypes? Work with the "truths" the archetypes give you until you see beyond them as well as into them.
At the risk of going on forever, I will say that in terms of real history, there is only one absolutely solid piece of evidence indicating that belly dance or something like it was performed in a religious context: at the Apis Festival in Egypt in the 2nd century AD, probably as part of festive social dancing. There is a lot of evidence of dance by women as part of religious rituals in many ancient civilizations, but most of these dances derive from ritual movement and are probably not like belly dance. And the pop-culture idea of temples populated by dancing priestesses in Egypt and Mesopotamia is quite at odds with the male-dominated temple structure and the specific and limited roles of the women (and men) who provided music and dance at various ritual occasions. To be blunt about it ...
Joy in dance (and I mean it!),
Andrea
I just wanted to toss a few things into the mix.
Joseph Campbell has been an immense inspiration to people who have an interest in the world beyond the mundane and want tools to use and understand the resonances they feel with myths. In my mythology classes, he's the one author some of my students might already have read. Which is both bad and good.
Both he and Marija Gimbutas have a predilection for "universal theories," that is, finding ways in which a single framework can be applied to diverse things in order to make sense of it all. Which is great for us (modern Westerners), because the overarching framework is phrased in cultural terms we can understand, so it all comes out in our flavor.
I'll use a food metaphor (it's lunchtime) to express the problems with this: it's like going to the local K&W cafeteria to get your Mexican, Italian, Thai, Chinese, Afghani, Spanish, Brazilian, etc. food. It really all tastes sort of the same. To get any richness out of it, you have to go to the right restaurant. Where they do one thing and do it well.
In other words, go to the original culture to find the meanings of its myths. Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty is a scholar who has written about archetype, and she says essentially that by the time you have refined things to a nearly-universal archetype, it's bare, dead bone -- so vague it's meaningless. I agree. (Among feminist archeologists dealing with prehistory, BTW, Gimbutas's archetype-influenced work is sort of a joke because she has the same interpretation for just about everything, whereas their specific studies are suggesting a lot more variety in prehistoric beliefs in different communities.)
What most people working in comparative mythology would tell you is that what we call "archetypes" and treat as universal are actually cultural constructs specific to our time and place. We can shoehorn other myths into terms that fit our perspectives (for a perfect example of such shoehorning, see *Women Who Run With the Wolves*). But our archetypes are all about ideas we have constructed to reflect desires and tensions in our own cultures.
So there is no "Great Mother" archetype that spans cultures, but that archetype is important in our culture.
Problem with many archetypes is that they are based on ideas that reflect the prejudices and power structures of the mainstream. Every time belly dance is identified in terms of "Great Mothers" and so on, it puts us in the Victorian age when these terms were formulated. It diminishes the multiple talents of women (and the many potentials of this dance) and puts them in a category that is essentially easy to dismiss, because it is ascribed to a time that is past, a power that was lost, a limited cultural function (motherhood), and a reduction of feminine potential into their reproductive biology.
All the goddess stuff is ultimately undermining the ability of us as dancers to break out of the Victorian molds of disempowered childbearers and be heard for the many other things we want to say with our dance.
If we want to tell stories that weren't hashed out in patriarchy, we have to get past the idea that "Archetypes" necessarily lead us to truth.
But I have to say, I feel all archetypal sometimes too, when I dance. So what do you do with those archetypes? Work with the "truths" the archetypes give you until you see beyond them as well as into them.
At the risk of going on forever, I will say that in terms of real history, there is only one absolutely solid piece of evidence indicating that belly dance or something like it was performed in a religious context: at the Apis Festival in Egypt in the 2nd century AD, probably as part of festive social dancing. There is a lot of evidence of dance by women as part of religious rituals in many ancient civilizations, but most of these dances derive from ritual movement and are probably not like belly dance. And the pop-culture idea of temples populated by dancing priestesses in Egypt and Mesopotamia is quite at odds with the male-dominated temple structure and the specific and limited roles of the women (and men) who provided music and dance at various ritual occasions. To be blunt about it ...
Joy in dance (and I mean it!
),Andrea
Marya
Member
THank you!
Andrea,
Thank you for your wonderful succinct reply. I agree with everything you say, I just lacked the appropriate background to write intelligently about it. Joseph Cambell is a powerful convincing speaker; I have read Maria Gimbutas and her video what shown at a belly dance womens gathering I attended, she is also a very persuasive person, but having lived in another culture, I strongly feel like one culture's myths are unique and not easily, or appropriately, transferred to another culture.
As much as I want the Mother Goddess archetype to be true my first reaction is always a sarcastic "yeah, right!!" But so many people (not just belly dancers) really, really, believe this I start feeling like a heathen in an Evangelical Christian Church and just keep my mouth shut.
Marya
Hi folks. Dang, it looks like I missed the "archetypes and goddesses" part of the discussion and came in on the "holding a pencil with ..." part. Well, both are equally interesting, I guess ...
I just wanted to toss a few things into the mix.
Joseph Campbell has been an immense inspiration to people who have an interest in the world beyond the mundane and want tools to use and understand the resonances they feel with myths. In my mythology classes, he's the one author some of my students might already have read. Which is both bad and good.
Both he and Marija Gimbutas have a predilection for "universal theories," that is, finding ways in which a single framework can be applied to diverse things in order to make sense of it all. Which is great for us (modern Westerners), because the overarching framework is phrased in cultural terms we can understand, so it all comes out in our flavor.
I'll use a food metaphor (it's lunchtime) to express the problems with this: it's like going to the local K&W cafeteria to get your Mexican, Italian, Thai, Chinese, Afghani, Spanish, Brazilian, etc. food. It really all tastes sort of the same. To get any richness out of it, you have to go to the right restaurant. Where they do one thing and do it well......snip snip
But I have to say, I feel all archetypal sometimes too, when I dance. So what do you do with those archetypes? Work with the "truths" the archetypes give you until you see beyond them as well as into them.....snip snip
Joy in dance (and I mean it!
Andrea
Andrea,
Thank you for your wonderful succinct reply. I agree with everything you say, I just lacked the appropriate background to write intelligently about it. Joseph Cambell is a powerful convincing speaker; I have read Maria Gimbutas and her video what shown at a belly dance womens gathering I attended, she is also a very persuasive person, but having lived in another culture, I strongly feel like one culture's myths are unique and not easily, or appropriately, transferred to another culture.
As much as I want the Mother Goddess archetype to be true my first reaction is always a sarcastic "yeah, right!!" But so many people (not just belly dancers) really, really, believe this I start feeling like a heathen in an Evangelical Christian Church and just keep my mouth shut.
Marya
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Andrea,
Another thing here, is that it is really only a few select dancers who are buying into the Mother goddess/belly dancer connection. Again, the average person on the street does not think of the dance as having that connection. We have to realize,I think that just because there are some dancers who are heading in a certain direction with the dance, this does not mean that it has a very ubiquitous effect on the general population, or even the majority of dancers.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Andrea,
Another thing here, is that it is really only a few select dancers who are buying into the Mother goddess/belly dancer connection. Again, the average person on the street does not think of the dance as having that connection. We have to realize,I think that just because there are some dancers who are heading in a certain direction with the dance, this does not mean that it has a very ubiquitous effect on the general population, or even the majority of dancers.
Regards,
A'isha
Andrea Deagon
New member
Marya, you *did* write intelligently about it, very much so. I think you went straight to the heart of the matter of our desire and need to believe. I sympathize with feeling like a heathen in church, around the Mother Goddess range of ideas. Not so much the idea of a mother goddess, because there have been lots of them over time (along with goddesses of different sorts, and systems of religious beliefs that did not focus around gods and goddesses). I think what bothers me is the monotheistic idea, and the fact that Goddess thealogy so clearly speaks to our own society's issues, but people want to project it back to where it has no place.
I am actually quite in alignment with many of the tenets of goddess thealogy. I read a book on this by Carol Christ, who is one of the leaders in this field, very articulate, and found many of my own beliefs expressed there. On the other hand, she was adamant that you have to believe in Matriarchy (with a capital M) as a historical phenomenon, and I draw the line there, just as many Christians draw the line at believing the world is 6,000 years old (figure obtained by counting biblical generations). I'll believe archaeologists about history before I believe spiritual leaders.
But I have no problem with the idea that spiritual truths manifest appropriately (and differently) for the cultures in which they appear. Of course we have belief systems that make sense to us. Duh. We don't need to have historicity to have spiritual truths. If goddess thealogy makes sense in the 20th century West, then there is no need to have historical precedent for this set of beliefs.
Having said all that, I do find that in my own dancing -- performing, when I did that, but now that I'm in hiatus, in practice -- when I get really into it, I sometimes find myself doing what I think of as "manifesting," which is short for "manifesting the goddess." Wait a minute, what goddess? :shok: Apparently, I *do* feel there is a divine feminine whose parameters we define through our own experiences. In a certain kind of state, the ideas and experiences that have shaped my life come out in dance in different forms that reflect that shifting and changing presence. Very archetypal, for better or worse. Basically this dance is my spiritual practice, and this feeling of "manifesting" is an important aspect of it.
Yet I get very peeved at the whole "Mother Goddess" thing. I guess this is one of the reasons my signature says, "I am not contradictory, I am dispersed."
Brea, I'm interested to hear how the Great Mother thing is popular in Hawai'i -- is there anything in that particular mythology to support it? Or is it mainly New Age?
And BTW, why do you dislike Campbell? I myself have mixed feelings. "Follow your bliss" is a good motto to live by, and I learned this through his work. And his ideas about seeking not meaning but a deepening of experience in life through myth also resonates with me. On the other hand, some of his work is very sexist, and that innate sexism has been imitated by his many followers, who ought to know better since their ideas of gender roles weren't formed in the 1920's and 30's.
I think what irks me most about both Campbell and Gimbutas is that it's so easy for the layman to be convinced by the beautiful big picture they offer, that they are not interested in learning the far more complex realities of other cultures. I think both had good intentions with their work -- Campbell wanting to bring us together in common humanity, Gimbutas wanting to describe a way of life that was not like modern patriarchy. But the charm and persuasiveness Marya comments on is hard to counter with admonitions to look for the things we *don't* understand in our search for wisdom ...
Obviously topics that interest me .... I'll try to make myself stop this flow of virtual ink! (Actually, I'm putting off washing the dishes and writing discussion questions for tomorrow's 8:00 AM mythology class on the Bacchae -- I love the topic but trying to make students talk about Euripides at 8 in the morning is not something I relish!)
Joy in dance,
Andrea
I am actually quite in alignment with many of the tenets of goddess thealogy. I read a book on this by Carol Christ, who is one of the leaders in this field, very articulate, and found many of my own beliefs expressed there. On the other hand, she was adamant that you have to believe in Matriarchy (with a capital M) as a historical phenomenon, and I draw the line there, just as many Christians draw the line at believing the world is 6,000 years old (figure obtained by counting biblical generations). I'll believe archaeologists about history before I believe spiritual leaders.
But I have no problem with the idea that spiritual truths manifest appropriately (and differently) for the cultures in which they appear. Of course we have belief systems that make sense to us. Duh. We don't need to have historicity to have spiritual truths. If goddess thealogy makes sense in the 20th century West, then there is no need to have historical precedent for this set of beliefs.
Having said all that, I do find that in my own dancing -- performing, when I did that, but now that I'm in hiatus, in practice -- when I get really into it, I sometimes find myself doing what I think of as "manifesting," which is short for "manifesting the goddess." Wait a minute, what goddess? :shok:
Apparently, I *do* feel there is a divine feminine whose parameters we define through our own experiences. In a certain kind of state, the ideas and experiences that have shaped my life come out in dance in different forms that reflect that shifting and changing presence. Very archetypal, for better or worse. Basically this dance is my spiritual practice, and this feeling of "manifesting" is an important aspect of it.Yet I get very peeved at the whole "Mother Goddess" thing. I guess this is one of the reasons my signature says, "I am not contradictory, I am dispersed."
Brea, I'm interested to hear how the Great Mother thing is popular in Hawai'i -- is there anything in that particular mythology to support it? Or is it mainly New Age?
And BTW, why do you dislike Campbell? I myself have mixed feelings. "Follow your bliss" is a good motto to live by, and I learned this through his work. And his ideas about seeking not meaning but a deepening of experience in life through myth also resonates with me. On the other hand, some of his work is very sexist, and that innate sexism has been imitated by his many followers, who ought to know better since their ideas of gender roles weren't formed in the 1920's and 30's.
I think what irks me most about both Campbell and Gimbutas is that it's so easy for the layman to be convinced by the beautiful big picture they offer, that they are not interested in learning the far more complex realities of other cultures. I think both had good intentions with their work -- Campbell wanting to bring us together in common humanity, Gimbutas wanting to describe a way of life that was not like modern patriarchy. But the charm and persuasiveness Marya comments on is hard to counter with admonitions to look for the things we *don't* understand in our search for wisdom ...
Obviously topics that interest me ....
I'll try to make myself stop this flow of virtual ink! (Actually, I'm putting off washing the dishes and writing discussion questions for tomorrow's 8:00 AM mythology class on the Bacchae -- I love the topic but trying to make students talk about Euripides at 8 in the morning is not something I relish!)Joy in dance,
Andrea
Right on!
Thanks Andrea! Let's hear it for the multiple talents of women and the many expressive potentials of this dance, and the here and now. I refuse to accept to be reduced to a disempowered childbearer or any of the related alternatives--sex object, shy virgin, old crone, etc. I'm all of these and none of them. I'm human. Cathy
Thanks Andrea! Let's hear it for the multiple talents of women and the many expressive potentials of this dance, and the here and now. I refuse to accept to be reduced to a disempowered childbearer or any of the related alternatives--sex object, shy virgin, old crone, etc. I'm all of these and none of them. I'm human. Cathy
Marya
Member
manifesting
snip...
Having said all that, I do find that in my own dancing -- performing, when I did that, but now that I'm in hiatus, in practice -- when I get really into it, I sometimes find myself doing what I think of as "manifesting," which is short for "manifesting the goddess." Wait a minute, what goddess? :shok: Apparently, I *do* feel there is a divine feminine whose parameters we define through our own experiences. In a certain kind of state, the ideas and experiences that have shaped my life come out in dance in different forms that reflect that shifting and changing presence. Very archetypal, for better or worse. Basically this dance is my spiritual practice, and this feeling of "manifesting" is an important aspect of it.
Andrea[/QUOTE]
Andrea, you are the divine Feminine, aren't we all showing this aspect of ourselves when we dance?
I have felt this "presence" manifest also. It happened very early on when I first started classes and the first time it happened was in class and i was so startled, I stopped dancing and went and got a drink of water.
I also noticed that any kind of snake arm movements seemed to send me into a trance pretty quickly. Interestingly, it happens less now, I have to deliberately work at it to get that "one with the universe" feeling. I think that certain movements have an effect on the brain that is frequently interpreted as tapping into the spiritual realm. Drumming rhythms can cause this also. Certain Shamanistic traditions utilize both dancing and drumming to acheive the necessary trance. The first time I performed Guedra i was so spaced out afterward that I drove home and forgot half of my stuff and had to return to get it and still forgot some things!
Perhaps this phenomenon is more common than I thought and may be one reason the "Mother goddess" thing is so pervasive and persistant. I would love to explore trance dance more, but I haven't seen any workshops offered very many places.
does anyone else experience/manifest something while dancing?
concerning contradictions, I saw a quote somewhere, can't remember who to attribute it to, that states "civilization is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in your head at the same time" I am contradictory, It depends on what I had for breakfast or what my dreams were that day as to what I may say I believe. I believe in nature and nature is not consistant, but it is not random, even though it appears that way.
Marya
snip...
Having said all that, I do find that in my own dancing -- performing, when I did that, but now that I'm in hiatus, in practice -- when I get really into it, I sometimes find myself doing what I think of as "manifesting," which is short for "manifesting the goddess." Wait a minute, what goddess? :shok:
Apparently, I *do* feel there is a divine feminine whose parameters we define through our own experiences. In a certain kind of state, the ideas and experiences that have shaped my life come out in dance in different forms that reflect that shifting and changing presence. Very archetypal, for better or worse. Basically this dance is my spiritual practice, and this feeling of "manifesting" is an important aspect of it.Andrea[/QUOTE]
Andrea, you are the divine Feminine, aren't we all showing this aspect of ourselves when we dance?
I have felt this "presence" manifest also. It happened very early on when I first started classes and the first time it happened was in class and i was so startled, I stopped dancing and went and got a drink of water.
I also noticed that any kind of snake arm movements seemed to send me into a trance pretty quickly. Interestingly, it happens less now, I have to deliberately work at it to get that "one with the universe" feeling. I think that certain movements have an effect on the brain that is frequently interpreted as tapping into the spiritual realm. Drumming rhythms can cause this also. Certain Shamanistic traditions utilize both dancing and drumming to acheive the necessary trance. The first time I performed Guedra i was so spaced out afterward that I drove home and forgot half of my stuff and had to return to get it and still forgot some things!
Perhaps this phenomenon is more common than I thought and may be one reason the "Mother goddess" thing is so pervasive and persistant. I would love to explore trance dance more, but I haven't seen any workshops offered very many places.
does anyone else experience/manifest something while dancing?
concerning contradictions, I saw a quote somewhere, can't remember who to attribute it to, that states "civilization is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in your head at the same time" I am contradictory, It depends on what I had for breakfast or what my dreams were that day as to what I may say I believe. I believe in nature and nature is not consistant, but it is not random, even though it appears that way.
Marya
Aisha Azar
New member
Myths, etc.
Dear Gang,
I have to admit that for me, the dance as it is supposed to be, seems so completely, intrinsically human that I can not even imagine it being relegated to something that belongs to any gods or goddesses, unless they be jealous of what WE have created. This dance, more than any other seems to belong intimately and purposefully to expressions of human nature. When we really LOOK at the authentic dances, we see the warts and all. In natives states, the perfection is all about the humaness, not about an unreachable goal of goddess, but about being able to think, feel and respond as who and what we are in this minute.
But then, I have never really been into the anthropomorphic concepts of diety, either.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Gang,
I have to admit that for me, the dance as it is supposed to be, seems so completely, intrinsically human that I can not even imagine it being relegated to something that belongs to any gods or goddesses, unless they be jealous of what WE have created. This dance, more than any other seems to belong intimately and purposefully to expressions of human nature. When we really LOOK at the authentic dances, we see the warts and all. In natives states, the perfection is all about the humaness, not about an unreachable goal of goddess, but about being able to think, feel and respond as who and what we are in this minute.
But then, I have never really been into the anthropomorphic concepts of diety, either.
Regards,
A'isha
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Andrea Deagon
New member
A'isha, I don't think you have to think "anthropomorphic." I think the idea of divine immanence is a good one to go by (and what Marya said) -- you *are* the divine feminine (Thanks, Marya -- I love it!). I grew up as a Quaker and the only creed that I was taught is "There is something of the divine in everyone / everything." (When I was a kid it was expressed as, "There is that of god in every man," but in modern times the universalism meant to be there is specified by the more neutral terms.)
I don't think divine and human are opposed ideas in our dance. I think they're complimentary.
One of the goddess thealogy tenets that I like it the idea of a web of life, and I think a good dance lights up nodes all along that web. You can see it in terms of human or divine as you like. It's not a dichotomy but maybe just a different lens.
One of the things manifesting feels like to me is, "Here's some wisdom coming on ..." But it always happens in the context of human emotions and connections.
Joy in dance,
Andrea
I don't think divine and human are opposed ideas in our dance. I think they're complimentary.
One of the goddess thealogy tenets that I like it the idea of a web of life, and I think a good dance lights up nodes all along that web. You can see it in terms of human or divine as you like. It's not a dichotomy but maybe just a different lens.
One of the things manifesting feels like to me is, "Here's some wisdom coming on ..." But it always happens in the context of human emotions and connections.
Joy in dance,
Andrea
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Andrea,
Since I am a pantheist, neither do I think there is ever any separation from the Devine and I, like some of Hesse's protagonists, see that every molecule of of everything that exists is a manifestation of and spark of the devine. However, to separate that out into a "Goddess" with anthropomorphic qualities is just not part of how I view it. I am devine, but it has not a thing to do with being female, since I am in actuality no more or less devine than any other thought word or deed. ( I hope that sort of explained my view a little better.) In other words, divinity is nothing special, it is what is, expressed every moment by everything.
Regards, A'isha
Dear Andrea,
Since I am a pantheist, neither do I think there is ever any separation from the Devine and I, like some of Hesse's protagonists, see that every molecule of of everything that exists is a manifestation of and spark of the devine. However, to separate that out into a "Goddess" with anthropomorphic qualities is just not part of how I view it. I am devine, but it has not a thing to do with being female, since I am in actuality no more or less devine than any other thought word or deed. ( I hope that sort of explained my view a little better.) In other words, divinity is nothing special, it is what is, expressed every moment by everything.
Regards, A'isha
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Andrea- the sexism did it. I can't listen to a man who's so wrapped up in that, because for me any scholarly work is tainted (especially considering what it is he's teaching).
Aside from that, I don't feel a personal manifestation of anything. However, people have told me that when I dance in a show there's like a 'whoomph' of power (compared to other dancers), whatever that means. I still don't buy into the mother goddess thing.
Aside from that, I don't feel a personal manifestation of anything. However, people have told me that when I dance in a show there's like a 'whoomph' of power (compared to other dancers), whatever that means. I still don't buy into the mother goddess thing.
I do sometimes experience a transported kind of state, either dancing or watching dance. I don't think of it as manifesting the divine feminine, any goddess, or anything along those lines. At first I didn't know what to think, it seemed like a fever with strong emotions. Then after a lot of exchanges with my teacher about it, and also a lot of reading and thinking (especially Making Music in the Arab Word: The History and Culture of Tarab by A.J. Racy), I have decided that it is the dance version of what Arab musicians call tarab (musical ecstasy) or similar to what Flamenco musicians and dancers call duende. It may be related to the Sufi concept wajd (trance or ecstatic trance) that is of course associated with Dervish (which I have seen only a few times and have never tried.)
There is another book I am going to read as soon as I have the chance called Music and Trance: A Theory of the RElations between Music and Possession by Gilbert Rouget (translated from the French) that I am sure will touch upon this and related subjects including drumming and shamanism.
P.S. From what we know of Middle Eastern culture at least since the time of the Prophet, I doubt anyone doing this dance in culture was experiencing anything they would call manifesting the goddess. I guess it could have happened in very ancient times. Also, what I am describing does have the feeling of being beyond self, in connection with something larger, but fully human. So the "here's some wisdom coming on" feeling could sort of work, though for me it's more like knowing perfect oneness with the music/dancer.
Cathy
There is another book I am going to read as soon as I have the chance called Music and Trance: A Theory of the RElations between Music and Possession by Gilbert Rouget (translated from the French) that I am sure will touch upon this and related subjects including drumming and shamanism.
P.S. From what we know of Middle Eastern culture at least since the time of the Prophet, I doubt anyone doing this dance in culture was experiencing anything they would call manifesting the goddess. I guess it could have happened in very ancient times. Also, what I am describing does have the feeling of being beyond self, in connection with something larger, but fully human. So the "here's some wisdom coming on" feeling could sort of work, though for me it's more like knowing perfect oneness with the music/dancer.
Cathy
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Aisha Azar
New member
Tarab
Dear Cathy,
I would agree that this is a part of the stuff called "Lown Tarab" among the Arabs. In English we might say, "In the Zone".
Your explanation is very wonderful and full or dance truth!
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Cathy,
I would agree that this is a part of the stuff called "Lown Tarab" among the Arabs. In English we might say, "In the Zone".
Your explanation is very wonderful and full or dance truth!
Regards,
A'isha
Amanda (was Aziyade)
Well-known member
My biggest complaint about myths isn't really the goddess thing, but something that it stems frmo -- the idea that this is a WOMAN'S dance, and the men who dance it are something like Unmanly.
Part of my original thesis was that Orientalist art and attitudes helped set an idea of specific sex roles in the Middle East that didn't really exist -- but were part of the Western expectation. Movement is denoted as "Masculine" and "Feminine" by individual cultures -- and in the West, the Middle Eastern torso and hip movements were deemed "feminine," even though there was no such denotation in their home cultures. (I have a bibliography and sources available for this if ya want 'em.)
Years (decades, centuries) of colonialism and foreign rule have led to an attitude in Egypt that sometimes imitates that of the west. To the wealthy and powerful "elite" (read: Westernized) citizens, the belly dance (hip and torso movement) is sometimes viewed as unmanly, and to many people something to be quasi-ashamed of, nationally.
Anywho, all this leads to the attitude that bellydance is a woman's dance, done by women and for women and all that jazz, which I'm sure has its own degrees of accuracy, depending on WHICH Arab culture we're talking about, but also leads Americans to believe the harem fantasy, and "womyn's" dance, myths, and that women somehow OWN hip and torso movements in dance. (Tell that to the Turks, Kurds, and Armenians. I'm sure they'd be surprised to find out their favorite hip twists and shimmies in their folk dances are "feminine.")
In America, we have the idea that only WOMEN want to move this way, because our culture has decided that certain movements are masculine and others are feminine, and these movements are decidedly "feminine." I think this is what helps fuel the ancient goddess bellydance in childbirth ideas.
Part of my original thesis was that Orientalist art and attitudes helped set an idea of specific sex roles in the Middle East that didn't really exist -- but were part of the Western expectation. Movement is denoted as "Masculine" and "Feminine" by individual cultures -- and in the West, the Middle Eastern torso and hip movements were deemed "feminine," even though there was no such denotation in their home cultures. (I have a bibliography and sources available for this if ya want 'em.)
Years (decades, centuries) of colonialism and foreign rule have led to an attitude in Egypt that sometimes imitates that of the west. To the wealthy and powerful "elite" (read: Westernized) citizens, the belly dance (hip and torso movement) is sometimes viewed as unmanly, and to many people something to be quasi-ashamed of, nationally.
Anywho, all this leads to the attitude that bellydance is a woman's dance, done by women and for women and all that jazz, which I'm sure has its own degrees of accuracy, depending on WHICH Arab culture we're talking about, but also leads Americans to believe the harem fantasy, and "womyn's" dance, myths, and that women somehow OWN hip and torso movements in dance. (Tell that to the Turks, Kurds, and Armenians. I'm sure they'd be surprised to find out their favorite hip twists and shimmies in their folk dances are "feminine.")
In America, we have the idea that only WOMEN want to move this way, because our culture has decided that certain movements are masculine and others are feminine, and these movements are decidedly "feminine." I think this is what helps fuel the ancient goddess bellydance in childbirth ideas.
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Aziyade,
I know that many people are under the impression that it is only the West who demand this difference between the way men and women move, but belly dance, (one more time , now) is MORE than just movement. Egyptians, for the most part still feel that the dance IS a women's dance. Beledi, Saidi and Shaabi,on the other hand are accepted as appropriate for both genders. These dances have movement in common with belly dance, but because belly dance is indeed its own separate dance in the eyes of Arabs, not just "Beledi on the stage", its meaning is different in their eyes, too. For most Egyptains, it is still very much a female dance, and this has less to do with movement than context both psychologically and culturally. While at the moment I can not think of any references for this, I can tell you that I have literally spoken with hundreds of Arabs about this very subject over the last 34 years, and this is what THEY say. (Of course, I realize that I have no written down corroborative evidence, but that does not make it any less true.) This is not what the West out on the dance, but what developed from the cultures themselves. We need to start giving credit and responsibility to the people for their own ability to develop their attitudes and feelings and cultural mores.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Aziyade,
I know that many people are under the impression that it is only the West who demand this difference between the way men and women move, but belly dance, (one more time , now) is MORE than just movement. Egyptians, for the most part still feel that the dance IS a women's dance. Beledi, Saidi and Shaabi,on the other hand are accepted as appropriate for both genders. These dances have movement in common with belly dance, but because belly dance is indeed its own separate dance in the eyes of Arabs, not just "Beledi on the stage", its meaning is different in their eyes, too. For most Egyptains, it is still very much a female dance, and this has less to do with movement than context both psychologically and culturally. While at the moment I can not think of any references for this, I can tell you that I have literally spoken with hundreds of Arabs about this very subject over the last 34 years, and this is what THEY say. (Of course, I realize that I have no written down corroborative evidence, but that does not make it any less true.) This is not what the West out on the dance, but what developed from the cultures themselves. We need to start giving credit and responsibility to the people for their own ability to develop their attitudes and feelings and cultural mores.
Regards,
A'isha
At the same time, my old Egyptian boss claimed that this dance was for both. It was never only for women; a Jordanian man I recently met at the pool said the same thing. In fact, every person of Arab extraction I have ever met has told me it is not a woman's dance. So I am siding here with Aziyade.
What I wonder is why A'isha's friends and my friends differ so greatly in their opinions...there must be some reason.
What I wonder is why A'isha's friends and my friends differ so greatly in their opinions...there must be some reason.
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Brea,
I wonder the same about your's. You have met two that you say think something different. I have met hundreds who say what I have repeated here, and they add that it is shameful for men to belly dance because it is "women's work". It is also shameful for women to dance, but not nearly as much since at least they are doing work that is their's. You will find this kind of thinking in almost all patriarchal societies, even the one that we live in.
(Nonetheless, as an aside, according to a program I watched on PBS, women do two thirds of the world's work and make 1/10th of the world's money.) There are countless female belly dancers and very few male ones. One of the reasons is because it is considered to be women's work in countries of origin. This has held over into western thinking on the subject, too, so we find that people like Tarik are often passed over for women who can not dance as well, because of that. He has complained about this himself, and I believe him because I have seen it myself. I have also seen Arab bands be incredibly cruel and unusual to male dancer because they think its haram. I am not making this up.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Brea,
I wonder the same about your's. You have met two that you say think something different. I have met hundreds who say what I have repeated here, and they add that it is shameful for men to belly dance because it is "women's work". It is also shameful for women to dance, but not nearly as much since at least they are doing work that is their's. You will find this kind of thinking in almost all patriarchal societies, even the one that we live in.
(Nonetheless, as an aside, according to a program I watched on PBS, women do two thirds of the world's work and make 1/10th of the world's money.) There are countless female belly dancers and very few male ones. One of the reasons is because it is considered to be women's work in countries of origin. This has held over into western thinking on the subject, too, so we find that people like Tarik are often passed over for women who can not dance as well, because of that. He has complained about this himself, and I believe him because I have seen it myself. I have also seen Arab bands be incredibly cruel and unusual to male dancer because they think its haram. I am not making this up.
Regards,
A'isha
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A'isha-
I don't think you're making it up. And I have been around many more Arabs than two! They all seem to agree with each other, my teachers (from Algeria), my boss (from Egypt), the Jordanian professor I recently met, and all their friends. I have been immersed in this world as well.
I am merely wondering if there is some reason why these people say different things...length of time in the US? perhaps, like with Thor Heyerdahl, they want to make both of us happy by telling us what we want to hear?
I don't think you're making it up. And I have been around many more Arabs than two! They all seem to agree with each other, my teachers (from Algeria), my boss (from Egypt), the Jordanian professor I recently met, and all their friends. I have been immersed in this world as well.
I am merely wondering if there is some reason why these people say different things...length of time in the US? perhaps, like with Thor Heyerdahl, they want to make both of us happy by telling us what we want to hear?