Cultural appreciation and BD history

[Aisha Azar]

Dear Rico,
I am meaning this question as a real question and not a hostile remark. Since you have repeatedly said that you don't care about the culture that surrounds the dance, why bother to call what you do "belly dance" and why bother to perform it? Why not go and do jazz or something else that is very American since that seems where your heart is.
Whether or not Arabs ever see my dance, I do owe something back to that culture since I am specifically immersed in Arab dance, not only belly dance but other styles and forms as well. Denying it makes a mockery of the dance . If I try to ignore the cultural provenance of the dance, I am then no longer doing the dance because dance is always tied to culture. If you want to create something new, then do it, but calling it belly dance while ignoring the ethnic cultures from which belly dance springs is rather calling Taco Bell "Mexican Food".
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Recnadocir]

Hmm, well we have our orders, Zorba! LOL

One parting shot- Aisha Azar, I've never said I disrespect Arabic culture. And to repeat what I've said before: belly dance movement belongs to the world, same as ballet, jazz, tap, etc. If someone named "Bill Smith" wants to call themselves "Abdul Alhazred" and dress up in ersatz Arabic costuming, that's their thing, I don't care. Conversely, it's none of anybody's business what I do with the movement of belly dance. The only opinions I care about are those of booking agents, presenters, and as Moon aptly mentioned, the audience.

If you don't like it, don't watch! Who cares? It's a free country!

 

[Recnadocir]

calling it belly dance while ignoring the ethnic cultures from which belly dance springs is rather calling Taco Bell "Mexican Food".

OMG?!?!...you mean, Taco Bell isn't Mexican Food?

Next thing, you'll try to tell me that Panda Express isn't Chinese food. Nice try, Aisha Azar, nice try.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Males dancing

Dear Zorba,

Rico's right. If someone doesn't have respect for me, why should I have respect for them? Its a two way street. From what I read over and over and over again, Belly Dancers in most parts of the middle east are considered whores or otherwise undesireables. To my mind, they are figuratively being spit on.

Well, first of all, they are not coming to you and using your dances. you are using their's. You should respect them because you are saying that you are doing their artform. And yes, it IS their artform. We are borrowing it from their culture and owe something back. If we are not following the precepts of the artform as it comes to us, then we should call what we are doing by another name. If one is calling something watercolor, it is not done with oil paints. If we are cooking Coc Au Van, we don't use rice vinegar to create the meal. If we are building a skirt, we don't use a jacket pattern. It's only common sense. And if you feel that the dancers are being figuratively spit on, then why do the dance? (In fact some of the well known belly dancers are some of the most repected people and smost powerful women in Egypt. Fifi Abdou is one example of a woman who is loved and respected by the Egyptian people, becasue she has never forgetten her roots and where she came from, so whore or no whore, the people love her.)

Fine - then those who are doing the spitting have lost all right to define/complain about Americans/whoever co-opting "their" dance! The collective "they" are doing their very best to WIPE OUT the artform in its native land(s). "They" OBVIOUSLY don't want it - so its up to "us" to take it on (at least until our own "American taliban" religious whackoes succeed in banning it here).

Again, if you feel that way, what compells you to even want to do this dance? There are plenty of nice, western dance froms where you won't get any flack, that have the same movements in them as belly dance. And the people do indeed want the dance. That is why it is still performed in so many countries and venues. You are making a simplistic remark about a very complicated issue. This is not black and white.

Not only that, but it is my *PERSONAL* feeling that this dance is far older than the current religion/culture/people that are currently extant in the middle east - in other words, "they" didn't create the dance, they merely inherited it. We all know the debate about the origins of the dance - it isn't my intention to reopen that debate here. I think almost all theories have some basis in fact - the world is a big place in time and space.

Zorba, there is plenty of evidence out there to show that this is indeed NOT an ancient dance at all, but pretty new in the scope of things; roughly a hundred years old. It does take many of its basic movement concepts from older dances, but then so does every other modern style of dance, because there is only a finite number of ways in which the human body can move. There is no "ancient" belly dance. If you think there is please provide proof that can be traced back to a reliable source.

No offense intended to anyone - as always, these are my opinions only.

No offense intended here, either, but we really need to start respecting the dance. Love is an action word, and we have to start loving the dance as it is and not as some tribute to our own egos.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Demelza]

Dear Zorba,

Well, first of all, they are not coming to you and using your dances. you are using their's. You should respect them because you are saying that you are doing their artform. And yes, it IS their artform. We are borrowing it from their culture and owe something back. If we are not following the precepts of the artform as it comes to us, then we should call what we are doing by another name. If one is calling something watercolor, it is not done with oil paints.

Very well put xx, Love Demelza

 

[Zorba]

Zorba, there is plenty of evidence out there to show that this is indeed NOT an ancient dance at all, but pretty new in the scope of things; roughly a hundred years old. It does take many of its basic movement concepts from older dances, but then so does every other modern style of dance, because there is only a finite number of ways in which the human body can move. There is no "ancient" belly dance. If you think there is please provide proof that can be traced back to a reliable source.

There is evidence in ALL directions - as far as I can tell. I freely admit I'm no historian - but I've heard many different, conflicting theories from people whom I respect.

BUT

I agree with you in one respect - the dance AS WE KNOW IT, *IS* only 100 years old or so. The commonly asserted reason for this is the "response to British colonialism" thing that we've all heard.

Comment?

So Fifi is loved by "All Egyptians"? So why is the dance being supressed there? Why do the religious whackoes get their way? We've all heard stories of dancers who were bribed or threatened until they "took the veil" and retired.

I'm sorry, I tend to distrust monotheistic philosophies and cultures of any type - the Mid East is, of course, full of them as it is the birthplace of at least four different ones - three of them interrelated to an astonishing degree.

And again, I don't necessarily think "their" dances are really "theirs". Perhaps - or perhaps not. I've heard many theories over the years, many of them make sense.

So I guess the short "take home" answer is - yes, I respect the dance (How could I not, it is the most beautiful in the world), but I refuse to be a slave to its "cultural baggage". We all know how culture is relative and in the ultimate sense, artificial. Beautiful, ugly, powerful, and weak, but definately artificial.

 

[Zorba]

Dear Zorba,



Well, first of all, they are not coming to you and using your dances. you are using their's. You should respect them because you are saying that you are doing their artform. And yes, it IS their artform. We are borrowing it from their culture and owe something back. If we are not following the precepts of the artform as it comes to us, then we should call what we are doing by another name. If one is calling something watercolor, it is not done with oil paints.

I say I'm doing "American Belly Dance", nothing more, nothing less. Follow the precepts of the artform? Yes, as best I can. Follow the precepts of the culture? I don't think so - I don't even follow many of the precepts of my OWN culture!

 

[Demelza]

So Fifi is loved by "All Egyptians"? So why is the dance being supressed there? Why do the religious whackoes get their way? We've all heard stories of dancers who were bribed or threatened until they "took the veil" and retired.

I'm sorry, I tend to distrust monotheistic philosophies and cultures of any type - the Mid East is, of course, full of them as it is the birthplace of at least four different ones - three of them interrelated to an astonishing degree.

Zorba - who said that the dance is beign supressed there? and if it is, who said that it is the religious 'whackoes' as you reffered to them ?

Zorba - Why do you distrust societies who believe in one God rather than many?

Zorba - Do you know what your name is an anagram of in Arabic !!???

Peace and love, Demelza xxxx

 

[Aisha Azar]

Ma;es, etc.

There is evidence in ALL directions - as far as I can tell. I freely admit I'm no historian - but I've heard many different, conflicting theories from people whom I respect.

BUT

I agree with you in one respect - the dance AS WE KNOW IT, *IS* only 100 years old or so. The commonly asserted reason for this is the "response to British colonialism" thing that we've all heard.

Comment?

So Fifi is loved by "All Egyptians"? So why is the dance being supressed there? Why do the religious whackoes get their way? We've all heard stories of dancers who were bribed or threatened until they "took the veil" and retired.

I'm sorry, I tend to distrust monotheistic philosophies and cultures of any type - the Mid East is, of course, full of them as it is the birthplace of at least four different ones - three of them interrelated to an astonishing degree.

And again, I don't necessarily think "their" dances are really "theirs". Perhaps - or perhaps not. I've heard many theories over the years, many of them make sense.

So I guess the short "take home" answer is - yes, I respect the dance (How could I not, it is the most beautiful in the world), but I refuse to be a slave to its "cultural baggage". We all know how culture is relative and in the ultimate sense, artificial. Beautiful, ugly, powerful, and weak, but definately artificial.

Dear Zorba,

I am not one who buys into the response to British colonialism thing, but intead believe the dance was developing even in urban circles where the British did not travel. It is an outcome of an agrarian society moving into the cities and developing a more sophistocated type of dance, whether or not the British or anyone else were present. This is my theory, based on studying what has happened to folkloric dances in countries across the world when people moved from one kind of societal situation to another. ( Why is it that so many thinkers in the "West" always think nothing ever happens until THEY get there??)

As for the comment about Fifi being loved by "All" Egyptians, the comment that I made was almost word for word what I have heard from several Egyptians, not government officials, but the actual people. There is nothing that is true of "All" anyone, but we can speak of a majority thinking a certain way.

What is the "evidence in all directions" that you discuss in terms of how old belly dance is? I have been searching for 32 years now and have never found evidence to support the idea that belly dance is an ancient dance. People are always rather vague about this when I ask. Please give me particular resources, hopefully with journal or book, author, page number, etc. I have pointed out several times, resources that refute this ancient belly dance thing, and given reasons why it is refuted. For example, dance experts state that the dancers seen on the Egyptian pyramids were definately NOT belly dancers because of the stylization of their movements. Delilah Flynn states that belly dance might not have started in the Middle East, but her research is REALLY sketchy, and basically supports her Goddess stuff more than any form of belly dance.

And once again, culture is not artificial. You find it in every type of society from the ant to the whale, including among all human beings. It is part of the lives of all creatures on the earth to create their socieites and therefore, culture. There is nothing "artificial " about that. It is a fact. I can't speak for the universe, but here on this little planet, culture is natural and abundant.

The problem here when you "refuse to accept any cultural baggage" is that dance is often a reflection of cultural baggage, as I see belly dance very clearly to be. Calling something "American belly dancing" is like saying Japanese Square dancing or Middle Eastern Morris dancing! Each of these dances are social and yes, cultural concepts that come with cultural baggage, and one can't simple at a whim add the name of another culture in front of the dance and make it BE the dance. They can not be separated out from the cultural baggage. Belly dance is not an American art form; it is a distinctly Middle Eastern/North African art form. If you have created a new form of dance, why not take pride in your accomplishment and call it by a new name? Why are people so reticent to do this? I just really don't understand.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Recnadocir]

Zorba makes the points better than I, about the cultural trappings that some seem to insist must be present when doing belly dance movement- or is it just if we call it "belly dance?" I don't exactly, I refer to what I do as a fusion of belly dance, jazz and lyrical, Latin, etc.. However, I do call it "belly dance" if the movement in a particular dance I make is exclusively, or nearly exclusively, belly dance.

Aisha Azar, you seem to feel so threatened by the whole fusion thing, and I really don't understand that. You are certainly highly respected as a belly dance teacher and performer, by all accounts, and you've made your mark, so to speak, so what do you care if others want to do something different? No one is disrespecting Middle Eastern culture if they choose to belly dance to heavy metal, to wear jeans (Egyptian dancers often do), to not use zils, etc. We are simply expressing ourselves, through the medium of a movement form. And I think it's irrelevant where the movement came from, how old it is, etc. Once it has diffused from one country to the next and from one culture to the next, it is universal, and belongs to all humankind. But I think this is the viewpoint of the visionary and innovative artist.

If we take your argument to it's extreme, then no Americans should be allowed to belly dance, not you, or I, or Zorba, or Salome, none of us. And no one who is not of Middle Eastern descent should be allowed to use an Arabic sounding stage name name unless they have some specified and genealogically verifiable degree of Arabic heritage. Under such a fundamentalist rule, it wouldn't matter how much you praise Arabic culture, how much Arabic music you listen to or use in your routine, how "pure" or authentic the movement in your routine is- if you're not Arabic, you can't dance, period. Even if you've been teaching 30 plus years and are respected throughout the land.

I reject the tyranny of absolutes, especially in art, which must always be free to borrow and fuse, to meld and synthesize, that art might ever be fresh, vital, and inspiring.

 

[Zorba]

Dear Zorba,

I am not one who buys into the response to British colonialism thing, but intead believe the dance was developing even in urban circles where the British did not travel. It is an outcome of an agrarian society moving into the cities and developing a more sophistocated type of dance, whether or not the British or anyone else were present. This is my theory, based on studying what has happened to folkloric dances in countries across the world when people moved from one kind of societal situation to another. ( Why is it that so many thinkers in the "West" always think nothing ever happens until THEY get there??)

I'm not saying that I'm buying it, but I'm not saying I'm rejecting it either. I just don't know.

As for the comment about Fifi being loved by "All" Egyptians, the comment that I made was almost word for word what I have heard from several Egyptians, not government officials, but the actual people. There is nothing that is true of "All" anyone, but we can speak of a majority thinking a certain way.

I, for one, hope you're right.

What is the "evidence in all directions" that you discuss in terms of how old belly dance is? I have been searching for 32 years now and have never found evidence to support the idea that belly dance is an ancient dance. People are always rather vague about this when I ask. Please give me particular resources, hopefully with journal or book, author, page number, etc. I have pointed out several times, resources that refute this ancient belly dance thing, and given reasons why it is refuted. For example, dance experts state that the dancers seen on the Egyptian pyramids were definately NOT belly dancers because of the stylization of their movements. Delilah Flynn states that belly dance might not have started in the Middle East, but her research is REALLY sketchy, and basically supports her Goddess stuff more than any form of belly dance.

The world is FAR older than most people give it credit for. I didn't say the dance came from ancient Egypt (Whose people were FAR wiser than most moderns) 'cause I don't know. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. It could have come from Atlantis or Lemuria for all I know. I don't know - and neither does anyone else. But as there are so few ways to move the human body - AND most dancers would agree that BD is one of the most natural ways to move it; logic dictates that it is neither an original nor a recent invention. "There are no new things under the sun". Even if it was created from scratch 10 years ago - I think somewhere, sometime, someone danced with a similar vocabulary. So now it devolves into semantics...

And once again, culture is not artificial. You find it in every type of society from the ant to the whale, including among all human beings. It is part of the lives of all creatures on the earth to create their socieites and therefore, culture. There is nothing "artificial " about that. It is a fact. I can't speak for the universe, but here on this little planet, culture is natural and abundant.

Ok, so you've made me think about that a bit. Perhaps "artificial" is a bad choice - "not absolute" *MAY* be better, or as a modifier.

The problem here when you "refuse to accept any cultural baggage" is that dance is often a reflection of cultural baggage, as I see belly dance very clearly to be. Calling something "American belly dancing" is like saying Japanese Square dancing or Middle Eastern Morris dancing! Each of these dances are social and yes, cultural concepts that come with cultural baggage, and one can't simple at a whim add the name of another culture in front of the dance and make it BE the dance.
They can not be separated out from the cultural baggage. Belly dance is not an American art form; it is a distinctly Middle Eastern/North African art form. If you have created a new form of dance, why not take pride in your accomplishment and call it by a new name? Why are people so reticent to do this? I just really don't understand.

Regards,
A'isha

My compliments! {BOW HERE} After I wrote that I thought you'd tangle me in my own logic here.

But I will plead that they can be seperated out from cultural baggage - at least to an extent. It starts becoming yet another semantic exercise: "What exactly *IS* Belly Dance?". Like any other dance, its emotion in motion based on a certain set of movements and postures.

Therefore universal.

 

[Zorba]

Zorba - who said that the dance is beign supressed there? and if it is, who said that it is the religious 'whackoes' as you reffered to them ?

Read contemporary literature and news reports. Its all over the place. Granted, its seldom front page news in mainstream media, but its there if you look for it...

Zorba - Why do you distrust societies who believe in one God rather than many?

What Rico said a couple of messages between this one and this reply is correct - this thread is becoming badly fragmented. Let's start a new thread if we want to discuss religion in the off topic area or something!

The *VERY* short answer is that monotheistic religions have a tendancy to want to convert the world to their particular brand of thought - and kill those who don't think the same way they do. Look up the Roman emporor Theodosius (sometimes called "the great") and how he supressed idiginous (sp?) "Pagan" religions. Or for a more modern outlook, pick up the paper and read about three stripes of monotheists who cannot get along...

Zorba - Do you know what your name is an anagram of in Arabic !!???

I haven't a clue as my name is Greek. So please do tell me, I'm very curious!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Males, etc

Dear Rico,
I gather then, that you think dance is specifically about movement from your opening comment?? Dance is about much more than movement. It is also about a people, a culture, a very strong sympatico with music, etc. It is not about doing whatever you want.

It seems as if you really don't understand my point at all. This has nothing to do with me.It has everything to do with the preservation of a very wonderful ethnic dance form, and creating clarity in the minds of students, teachers and the general audience about what it is exactly that they are seeing on the stage. It is not about me making "my mark" or caring if others do. I am not the least bit threatened for myself as far as what anyone else is doing. I am, however, very much afraid that the dance is being lost in all the stuff that is being called "belly dance", and that is more than terrible. I have never made any statements even hinting that I do not think that alternative and experimental dance forms are bad; only that they should be clearly distinguished from belly dance. What threatens the dance is ignorance and ego. For myself, as you say, I have a solid reputation and I defend it with my dance and with my teaching, not with talk. You will see very little in my writing about how fabulous I think I am becasue that is not why I write. But the dance itself can only be defended by people like myself, and we take that role very seriously as we see more perilous things happening to the dance all the time. You are already taking my argument "to the extreme" by suggesting its all about me, and that other stuff above is just nonsense, as you are well aware.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. I am very much in favor of good fusion and other innovations in dance. I am NOT in favor of mislabeling those efforts at creativity and calling them "belly dance", which has a definate connotation to the Middle East, whether or not it is a driect translation to Raqs Sharghi. If you choose to see that as "tyranny", then you go ahead and run with that. Feel free to have no responsiblity except to yourself. That, to me, is tyranny.

Art should not only be fresh, etc. It should also make sense within the boundaries of its form, and yes, Rico dear, most artists will admit and revel in the fact that art has boundaries. Ask your beloved Ray Savage if you don't believe me.
Regards,
A'isha

Dear Zorba,
Movement may be universal, but specific dances are certainly not. Once again and with feeling, MOVEMENT IS MORE THAN DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zorba]

Dear Zorba,
Movement may be universal, but specific dances are certainly not. Once again and with feeling, MOVEMENT IS MORE THAN DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you mean the exact opposite: Dance is more than movement!.

Which I agree - dance is about emotion. Emotion is the expression of being human. Dance is emotion in motion. Without emotion, dance is just aerobics.

Emotion is universal. Motion is universal. Dance is universal.

Now, I do agree with you that certain (artficial) rules need to be followed to call a particular dance a particular thing. My teachers tell me to hold my body a certain way, move various body parts in specific (my teacher's favorite word) ways, etc. I do that. But more importantly, I try to convey emotion with and within this set of movements. It isn't easy. Standing half naked (which is why the old masters painted nudes - to portray TRUTH) on a stage in front of a bunch of strangers baring my innermost soul? Its the hardest thing I'll ever do, and I only partially succeed part of the time. Those who mostly succeed most of the time we call "great dancers".

I'm not suggesting that "artificial" things are necessarily bad, or useless. Quite the contrary - a given society needs an agreed upon set of conventions to function. A dance needs an agreed upon set of conventions to exist. OTOH, a society's agreed upon conventions are not necessarily good or useful either. It is up to the individual to discern the difference. "No pants on women, no skirts on men" is, of course, an excellent example of a useless convention. Most modern western women choose to ignore it, and so are a growing number of western men.

However, getting back to dance - I try not to bring in anything outside the actual dance into it. The current M.E. culture has lots of conventions that have NOTHING to do with the dance - why should I worry about them?

To clarify previous thoughts:

Unlike Rico, I'm not trying to fuse anything - I'm trying to be as true to what my many teachers have taught me. It isn't easy, but I try!

BUT....

Like Rico, I reject the tyranny of absolutism. I reject absolutism where-ever I find it. Absolutism goes hand in hand with monotheism, which I also utterly reject.

Which is why I will only discuss that which IS absolute. Biology. Emotion. Motion. Dance. That which is TRUELY absolute is the bare essence of reality. All else is an illusion.

After thinking about yesterday's attempt on my part to clarify the word "artificial" in reference to culture, I think the word I'm really looking for is "arbitrary". Sure, it is a natural (read: non-"artificial") for any group of humans to form a culture. BUT, the culture formed is arbitrary as it is non-absolute. Therefore artificial. As above, all else is an illusion.

Bear with me, I'm going out on a limb here as I'm forging new thoughts on this subject - which is why I love discussions like this! They help me understand myself, others, and the world at large better. Thank you!

I'm still waiting for Demelza to tell me what "Zorba" means in Arabic! Please?

 

[Recnadocir]

Dear Aisha Azar,

I think it's clear that you do take it upon yourself to be the "defender of the faith," as it were, in regards to maintaining the cultural identity of belly dance. But, I don't think belly dance needs any defense. There will always be those who try to practice the most "pure" form of belly dance, as they see it, and there will always be those who experiment with it. I have never said that "pure" belly dance was wrong, but have consistently said that it is necessary and vital.

You have repeatedly stated that some of us should not use the words "belly dance" in our work, because it has elements of Western dance, or uses Western music. By this same argument, neither you nor any other American dancer should be using an Arabic name, unless it is your birth name. And ultimately, only those born in Middle Eastern countries, or of pure Arabic bloodlines, should be allowed to belly dance at all.

Extremism eventually devours those who espouse it, for ultimately no one is pure.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Males dancing, etc.

Deart Zorba,
Thank you for pointing out my tranposing words. (I did a correction).

Dance is about more than emotion as well...dance is tied to culture and spcific feelings and thoughts. I am quoting something here, that I said a long time ago about people in general. "We all feel the same things, but how we think about and apply our feelings to our lives can differ greatly from culture to culture". This is equally true of dance.

You keep using the word "artificial". There is such a thing as truth that does not happen at merely the basic level. Otrherwise we would still be swimming in Primordial Soup! I think we can apply Mazlow's Heirarchy of Needs here to make that point. Once the human being has met basic needs, other needs can be satisfied and they are needs that are just as important, therefore no more "artificial" than culture. Dance "rules" are not artificial. They are what makes the dance what it is and gives any given dance its truth. Generalized movement can be called "dance" when the word applies. Specified movement is what makes specific styles and kinds of dance, along with feelings, cultural essence, music etc. None of this is "artificial". It is instead the truth of the dance form. As you very beautifully stated " A dance needs an agreed upon set of conventions to exist" .(Can I quote you on that in other places, because it is an essential statement, I think).

The current ME culture, like every other era before it, is definately affecting the way in which the dance is now developing in its native environements. I totally disagree that that the current culture is not affecting the dance. It certainly is doing so on many levels. Note the rebellious costuming that is going on in the face of oppression by the authorities. More cleavage and more leg than ever!!!!!
I also do not believe that "culture is arbitrary", but instead tends to be a direct product of environment. The Eskimo has a culture that leads to survivial and even entertainment based on climate and other aspects related to environment. The same can be said of the Kung Bushmen of Africa, the American who lives in Arizona as opposed to the American who lives in Wisconsin, etc. Culture is not arbitrary, but often is a direct result of the environment, on physical, political and familial and personal levels. Culture changes, but it is not arbitrary. It changes because of what is affecting it in the environment.
However, when dance is taken out of its natural enviroment and bent to the whims of people who have no care for the origins of the dance, then THAT is artificial as it can possibly be.
Zorba, I have a comment I would like to make to you. You always argue with great care and I feel that we debate ideas and not personalities. I greatly appreciate that in all of our discourses.
With respect,
A'isha

Dear Rico,
Belly dance does indeed need defense as is clearly seen with "extremist" acts like that of Sadie and Kay and the girl with the barbs in her back to name just a few acts referring to what they are doing as "belly dance" when there is no essence of the dance to be found in their work. And you can refer to me as a tyrant, or threatened or whatever else pleases you. I really don't intend to back off as long as there are people who "don't care" what they do to the dance.
And with that other nonsense about "Only Arabs should dance", Oh, please. I have never intimated that on any level and my thinking does not even lead in that direction unless one is twisting it very severely to meet their own criteria.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Recnadocir]

Much ado about nothing

Zorba you can change this thread title if you like, perhaps "Tempest in a teapot?" or choose your own.

It seemed time to move all these posts as the thread was definitely degenerating into the "usual thing." If only Miles would come back...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

Dear Rico and Zorba,
I know that I rather resent the title of this thread since I do not feel that it is "Much ado about nothing" in any way. This happens to be an important and very relevant topic of discussion. Not only that, but it is definately NOT Off topic since it is definately about dance.
A'isha

 

[Salome]

Posting as a Moderator here. This thread has been moved from Off Topic to Other Dance Stuff because it is relevant to Oriental dance. I named the thread Cultural appreciation and BD history because that seemed to be the meat of the posts in this thread. If someone feels another title would be more descriptive, let the moderator of this forum know. I'm trying to sort out the "please help brighten my knowledge thread" and am asking folks to please help this thread stay on topic, Cultural appreciation and BD history. If another topic comes up for folks please start a new thread. Thanks so much and happy posting.

 

[Suhad]

It's only my opinion, but I feel that it's a relatively informed one as I have spent countless hours reading books and articles on the history and culture of the various cultures of the Middle East; I completely disagree with Aisha that bellydance is only 100 years old. I also completely disagree that it's a culturally pure art form that should never have anything adulterated with it to dilute it down.

Now before you go getting upset, please hear me out -- but keep in mind that although I have a warehouse of useless trivia in my little peabrain, I don't generally have references catalogued there with said useless trivia (bad, bad Susan!).

My reasoning is this: there are references, thousands of years old, in both written and artistic form that SEEM to refer to the movements of what we would recognize as "bellydance" in that part of the world. This says to me that the movements, and possibly the context, have been around for a very loooong time, certainly more than 100 years! I DO agree with Aisha that the art form AS IT IS NOW has only developed in the last 100 or so years, I would place it at more like 150, and I also agree it's due to Western colonialism. HOWEVER.

Silk, for instance, as a fabric is not native to the Middle East, yet it has been a fabric in use there for several hundreds of years. Why is this relevant? Simple: trade routes brought it there. The ME had something the Chinese wanted, there were merchants/mercenaries who were willing to travel to bring it to them, and who were also more than happy to bring something back to trade and make even more profit with. Is it too much to think that along the way the women in the caravan (and we know there were) picked up other dance movements/stylizations along the way, because it was beautiful/interesting/different, and incorporated it into their own? Is it too much to think that the same thing happened as the women of the villages/settlements along the trade routes made a point to visit the travelers to see THEIR dances, to incorporate beautiful/interesting/different as well?

Look at the violin: it has counterparts all over Asia/Middle East that are its direct ancestors; although it is possible that they sprung up simultaneously in all those far flung places it is much more likely that, musicians traditionally being the travelers they are, once the first person "invented" it and used it, others became interested, made their own, made improvements and modifications, and the process continued until today we have our violin. Is the violin a Middle Eastern instrument? Not really, but its roots are in the rebaba which is, and has relatives in Asia. This relates to bellydance in a very real way.

Look at the development of arm movements in ME dance in the last 50 years in Egypt: ballet has STRONGLY influenced both arms and posture. How can it be culturally pure when a white European dance form has had such a tremendous influence? It's not; the movements that work, that apply have been fused with the dance to create something different than it was, yet beautiful and retains the essence. Jazz has also had an influence which is visible if one knows what to look for.

In one sense it is imperialism to appropriate and use for one's own benefit the art forms of another culture with no sense as to the context yet in another, it's merely continuing a thousands of years old evolution. The difference is in the time space for the changes; in the last 150 years thanks to technology there has been more rapid dissemination and evolution than in the 2000 years before. THAT is the frightening part to the purists, because it is changing too rapidly for comfort.

The reality is that no dance form except perhaps Polynesian dance is "pure" and that is due to their isolation from other cultures and societies. Everyone else's is an amalgam of all the contributions made by all the travelers and settlers who came before. To ignore that is to ignore history and reality.

Does that mean I agree with others who say it's merely movement and doesn't have cultural context? No, I'm not saying that either; I'm merely pointing out that there IS a middle ground, and the truth is somewhere in between the two extremes of opinions here, neither of which seems to be able to grant the least bit of credibility to the other's.

That of the dance which is beautiful will always stay; that which isn't will be dropped. How much of the dance is gone in the last 200 years simply because it wasn't commercially viable? We'll never know, because as with most "women's" stuff, there just wasn't any documentation. It's human nature to copy, to emulate, to improve on. This dance isn't immune to that by any means.

No I don't think it's a women only thing, either, I merely point out that in commercial venues it is a mainly women's thing.

OK, long meandering rant over.