effects of classes & technique on MED

[karena]

Dear Karena,



A'isha writes-
It's called "Dissing" now, hunh? When I was young it was called "Playing the Dozens", and it was considered a verbal art form as well as a clever insult style! The idea was not to cause real hurt to your opponent most of the time, but to show how well you could throw clever words around that had nothing to do with the reality of the insult. This DID occasionally lead to some nastiness, but often it was all in good fun and everybody understood that. At least that's how it worked where I lived.
Belly dancers are too busy ripping each other to shreds to play a decent game of dozens. It seems to be more about injuring the other person most of the time.
Regards,
A'isha

Really not a hip hop expert, but I think it can get quite nasty, but I think it as an art rather than just meaness. I used to often drive home at the same time each week when there was someone on the radio reporting from New York about who had dissed who and what they said that week. All a bit over my head really. :lol: I seem to recall there being lots between Eminem and someone.
(I just googled Eminem and diss, and there were some egs but absolutely nothing I would be responsible for posting here :shok:, but for the curious...)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dissing, etc.

Really not a hip hop expert, but I think it can get quite nasty, but I think it as an art rather than just meaness. I used to often drive home at the same time each week when there was someone on the radio reporting from New York about who had dissed who and what they said that week. All a bit over my head really. :lol: I seem to recall there being lots between Eminem and someone.
(I just googled Eminem and diss, and there were some egs but absolutely nothing I would be responsible for posting here :shok:, but for the curious...)

Dear Karena,
Yes, it certainly could be another game entirely now!
Regards,
A'ishna

 

[belly_dancer]

People did not only learn from watching each other though. They also learned by asking each other how this or that movement was done, studying what others were doing and learning in a less formal setting but using some of the same techniques for learning that we see in the class situation. I learned to street dance from my black next door neighbor when I was about 14. She was the hottest dancer I had seen to that point and I was madly in love with going over to her house in the afternoons to learn steps for dances like the Alabama Dirty Dog, Hitchhiker, etc, all to great Motown tunes! I saw my daughter and her friends learn to dance in the same way, though my kid also took modern and jazz dance in more formal settings. I am not sure about forums for hiphop, but it would not surprise me!!

Regards,
A'isha

I was JUST thinking this (how I learned (& my friends & my daughters & their friends/etc) "street" dancing when we were like 11... this was before M-TV & the likes... though there was Cher on TV....) when I was reading the previous parts of your post!!

as far as "performing" families.... well I think if you are exposed to something on a regular basis, it tends to come more "naturally" only because you are immersed in it...(AND have access to the music/instruments/etc. just laying about the house!) so maybe nobody "taught" you how to dance or play an instrument... but I have seen plenty of "instruction/correction" going on in these types of families...
sort of like absentmindedly singing the abc's & doing the times tables w/ your children while you drive/etc...
like my husband is a welder... & my 7 year old made me a metal sculpture for mother's day (ok... hubby did the actual welding part... but my son did the bending/grinding/etc/etc..) just like maybe a painter's child may be well versed in whatever the parents medium is......
will my son grow up to be a kick ass welder??? who knows... but if it is of interest to him... well, he will have a leg up on most.. just because of early exposure....

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

People did not only learn from watching each other though. They also learned by asking each other how this or that movement was done, studying what others were doing and learning in a less formal setting but using some of the same techniques for learning that we see in the class situation. I learned to street dance from my black next door neighbor when I was about 14. She was the hottest dancer I had seen to that point and I was madly in love with going over to her house in the afternoons to learn steps for dances like the Alabama Dirty Dog, Hitchhiker, etc, all to great Motown tunes! I saw my daughter and her friends learn to dance in the same way, though my kid also took modern and jazz dance in more formal settings. I am not sure about forums for hiphop, but it would not surprise me!!
"
Regards,
A'isha

I was JUST thinking this (how I learned (& my friends & my daughters & their friends/etc) "street" dancing when we were like 11... this was before M-TV & the likes... though there was Cher on TV....) when I was reading the previous parts of your post!!

as far as "performing" families.... well I think if you are exposed to something on a regular basis, it tends to come more "naturally" only because you are immersed in it...(AND have access to the music/instruments/etc. just laying about the house!) so maybe nobody "taught" you how to dance or play an instrument... but I have seen plenty of "instruction/correction" going on in these types of families...
sort of like absentmindedly singing the abc's & doing the times tables w/ your children while you drive/etc...
like my husband is a welder... & my 7 year old made me a metal sculpture for mother's day (ok... hubby did the actual welding part... but my son did the bending/grinding/etc/etc..) just like maybe a painter's child may be well versed in whatever the parents medium is......
will my son grow up to be a kick ass welder??? who knows... but if it is of interest to him... well, he will have a leg up on most.. just because of early exposure....

Dear Belly_dancer,
In families of any sort, usually the kids learn to do stuff under their parents' eyes, with hints and instruction being less formal, but still a teaching/learning process. Chances are your husband has at least guided your son through the bending, grinding, etc, just as my father taught each of his kids to make a gourmet dish because he was a chef, and to do other cooking stuff. We learn in this way as well as in an academic or formal setting and I am not sure that "apprenticeships" should not be the greater part of any learning experience!!
Painters' kids in the old days were taught how to paint just like all the other apprentices. Often the work was signed by the painter but many times done by the apprentices for the better part, with the artists just doing touches here and there. But, this was not until they had spent time cleaning brushes mixing paints, and learning other areas of the trade. In fact in at least one case, and I forget who it is right now, his daughters did most of his famous works! But, this is just another kind of schooling and families do tend to pass on their skills.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[belly_dancer]

Dear Belly_dancer,
In families of any sort, usually the kids learn to do stuff under their parents' eyes, with hints and instruction being less formal, but still a teaching/learning process. Chances are your husband has at least guided your son through the bending, grinding, etc, just as my father taught each of his kids to make a gourmet dish because he was a chef, and to do other cooking stuff. We learn in this way as well as in an academic or formal setting and I am not sure that "apprenticeships" should not be the greater part of any learning experience!!
Painters' kids in the old days were taught how to paint just like all the other apprentices. Often the work was signed by the painter but many times done by the apprentices for the better part, with the artists just doing touches here and there. But, this was not until they had spent time cleaning brushes mixing paints, and learning other areas of the trade. In fact in at least one case, and I forget who it is right now, his daughters did most of his famous works! But, this is just another kind of schooling and families do tend to pass on their skills.
Regards,
A'isha

EXACTLY!!!!!
I think that "apprenticeships" should be required for students (in something they have natural talent AS WELL AS an interest in... do not think that is a proper sentence.. but you know what I mean???)....
I also think more parents should just automatically teach their kids (starting when very small) whatever it is that they (the parents) do.... too many kids are just sitting in front of TV (now computer or video) while the parents are making dinner/laundry/changing oil..... if the kids participated... in the very least they would become contributing members of the family...(not to mention how valuable it is for both parent & child to actually spend TIME together!) and then eventually be able to take care of themselves!!! MY best friend growing up HAD to do all the oil/fluid changes on her families cars by the time she was 12.... she HATED it THEN,,, but now she is at the mercy of NO mechanic.... I wish I had that life skill.....
lucky you.. with a chef parent!!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

EXACTLY!!!!!
I think that "apprenticeships" should be required for students (in something they have natural talent AS WELL AS an interest in... do not think that is a proper sentence.. but you know what I mean???)....
I also think more parents should just automatically teach their kids (starting when very small) whatever it is that they (the parents) do.... too many kids are just sitting in front of TV (now computer or video) while the parents are making dinner/laundry/changing oil..... if the kids participated... in the very least they would become contributing members of the family...(not to mention how valuable it is for both parent & child to actually spend TIME together!) and then eventually be able to take care of themselves!!! MY best friend growing up HAD to do all the oil/fluid changes on her families cars by the time she was 12.... she HATED it THEN,,, but now she is at the mercy of NO mechanic.... I wish I had that life skill.....
lucky you.. with a chef parent!!

Dear Belly_dancer,
Who says we can't run with a theme?? (LOL). Back to the subject. I think that in the matter of raqs sharghi, specifically as it is learned in countries of origin, that learning a foundation from the entertainment family, or learning from friends, etc, is probably pretty much the way those learned it who claim to have no formal education in the dance. I think that there is education happening around the native dancer every minute that she is alive, but that it is mostly a sort of unconscious learning of her culture that becomes an inherent part of her dance. This gives the person who comes from an entertainment family, or the person who goes on to study and dance with a group such as Reda's, a root system that is already in place. It does not have to be integrated, as anyone outside those cultures must attempt to do. I guess in anthropological and sociological studies it would be called "worldview", if I am remembering correctly from my classes.

 

[belly_dancer]

Dear Belly_dancer,
Who says we can't run with a theme?? (LOL). Back to the subject. I think that in the matter of raqs sharghi, specifically as it is learned in countries of origin, that learning a foundation from the entertainment family, or learning from friends, etc, is probably pretty much the way those learned it who claim to have no formal education in the dance. I think that there is education happening around the native dancer every minute that she is alive, but that it is mostly a sort of unconscious learning of her culture that becomes an inherent part of her dance. This gives the person who comes from an entertainment family, or the person who goes on to study and dance with a group such as Reda's, a root system that is already in place. It does not have to be integrated, as anyone outside those cultures must attempt to do. I guess in anthropological and sociological studies it would be called "worldview", if I am remembering correctly from my classes.

yeah...that unconscious/subconscious learning/immersion ....... the natives of ME countries (& maybe children of 1st generation immigrants to other countries) would have the advantage of being surrounded by the culture & most especially the music... which is HUGE... even after I learned good "technique" (& SH#*#.. even 15 years later).. as a BD.. I was/am still hugely disadvantaged by not having that (culture/music)surround me 24/7.... though another tale from the front... I was doing my parent torture (2nd grade carpool) yesterday... & I overheard my son's friend say to him "do you ALWAY'S have to listen to THAT???...
my son replied "yeah".. but luckily in a "no big deal" way...
oh & my other favorite bd/child story is how same son will tell a student "you aren't doing that right".... (he was present at class at least 1-2x per week for the 1st 6 years of life).... but the ONLY dances he "corrects" are the ones that I choreographed while pregnant with him.... & his FAVORITE to correct was the one choreographed while 8 months(the "last" one before I decided to "lay low" briefly!)... WOULD love to have studies done on THAT!!!!

 

[Andrea Deagon]

Regarding apprenticeships, there are several 19th century travelers to Egypt and Algeria who describe seeing "practice sessions" in which older dancers are training younger ones -- I think Guy du Maupassant describes this.

Of the four dancers who came to New York to perform in the Streets of Cairo exhibit after the Chicago world's fair 1893, one of them was described by the others as still learning the dance. She performed a solo in their shows same as the others, but the New York Times reporter who observed her commented that she was not as skillful as the others. So the apprenticeship was definitely in practice among theatrical families and/or individuals in the 19th century, and there were (at least for some dancers) times spent in rehearsal and in training future dancers. They at least didn't regard it as something that could be self taught.

I wonder, given the occasional modern claims to being self-taught, if there isn't something like this implied by the claim: "I didn't set out to be a belly dancer by doing anything as intentional as studying to do it and planning to get out here in front of people like I have, but since god gave me this gift and put me in the right place at the right time to become a belly dancer, how could I do anything but follow along?"

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Regarding apprenticeships, there are several 19th century travelers to Egypt and Algeria who describe seeing "practice sessions" in which older dancers are training younger ones -- I think Guy du Maupassant describes this.

Of the four dancers who came to New York to perform in the Streets of Cairo exhibit after the Chicago world's fair 1893, one of them was described by the others as still learning the dance. She performed a solo in their shows same as the others, but the New York Times reporter who observed her commented that she was not as skillful as the others. So the apprenticeship was definitely in practice among theatrical families and/or individuals in the 19th century, and there were (at least for some dancers) times spent in rehearsal and in training future dancers. They at least didn't regard it as something that could be self taught.

I wonder, given the occasional modern claims to being self-taught, if there isn't something like this implied by the claim: "I didn't set out to be a belly dancer by doing anything as intentional as studying to do it and planning to get out here in front of people like I have, but since god gave me this gift and put me in the right place at the right time to become a belly dancer, how could I do anything but follow along?"

Yes, I totally agree. This is some of what I said in an earlier thread.
I think this is exactly what is meant by 'self taught'.
It is informal training as opposed to formal. I mentioned earlier that the young women watch dancers shows to learn, but an older dancer puts them through their paces and teaches then the 'tricks of the trade.
It is still very much like this today.

 

[Kharis]

I dont remember ever seeing an Egyptian dancer perform with sagat either (live I mean)..

Fifi Abdou played zagat when I saw her perform in Cairo some years ago. She also does it on her vids.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc

Fifi Abdou played zagat when I saw her perform in Cairo some years ago. She also does it on her vids.

Dear Kharis,
The typical thing that happens with the Egyptian dancers is that they do not wear cymbals for raqs sharghi, but do wear cymbals for Beledi pieces. Fifi's famous Agheeb Agheeb number is one example. Usually during a show, the dancers will change costumes several times and perform several types of dances, including folkloric dances where they might use cymbals, but usually they do not wear them for belly dance. There are some exceptions, or perhaps I should say there "were" some exceptions. Nadia Hamdi used to wear cymbals for sharghi, for example.
When I saw Fifi live a couple of years ago, she did really exclusively a Beledi and "fakeloric" show, where she danced Beledi awhile and then smoked shisha in the audience for awhile. But in Egypt, I guess she is mostly acting these days according to what she said in our workshop.
Regards,
A'isha
Regards,
A'isha