Greek male bellydancer Prince Kayammer

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Tarik,
Shyness and a lack of confidence is not interpreted as gay or feminine. If that were the case, female and gay dancers who are not shy or lack confidence would be, ....what butch or masculine? Shyness and a lack of confidence is usually interpreted as a person being shy and unconfident, as in being new to what they do, being a student, not quite being sure of what they are doing. He performs as being a newish dancer who has not yet come fully into his own self as a dancer. What of females who are shy and unconfident? Are they gay and feminine,? Femininity is not in any way unconfident or gay, whether inherent in a female or male. Femininity in fact is a pretty good strength for any person to have, just as masculine qualities can be exhibited in both men and women as positive.
Many people think any male who dances belly dance is gay, no matter what his personal masculinity quotient. Masculinity or lack thereof has nothing to do with the general perception. In fact, many gay men are ultra masculine.
Regards,
A'isha

What I'm trying to say is that the general public is a lot more unforgiving of men than they are of women who project an air of shyness. Its unfair and sucks but true. There are people out there who look to cut any man down who is doing something they perceive as gender inappropriate. As I said, It happens to me all the time and I'm not feminine at all. I just do not agree with your opinion that unless a man is projecting an air of femininity he is not doing the dance correctly. On this point I strongly disagree and always will.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Here we go again

What I'm trying to say is that the general public is a lot more unforgiving of men than they are of women who project an air of shyness. Its unfair and sucks but true. There are people out there who look to cut any man down who is doing something they perceive as gender inappropriate. As I said, It happens to me all the time and I'm not feminine at all. I just do not agree with your opinion that unless a man is projecting an air of femininity he is not doing the dance correctly. On this point I strongly disagree and always will.

Dear Tarik,
Did you see that young man as feminine? I did not. I think you are confusing the feminine essence of the dance with males acting in a feminine way. The essence of the dance is feminine. In fact, there were aspects of his dance that were quite masculine, but he did not consider his manhood at stake while he was dancing and was able to relax and work with the feminine energy of the dance form in such a way that a trained dancer could see he really understands the dance emotionally, whether or not he has the world's best technique as of yet. Feminine essence does not mean that a man must dance with a girlish air. Please go back to the newbie thread and see what I said about feminine essence.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Tarik,
Did you see that young man as feminine? I did not. I think you are confusing the feminine essence of the dance with males acting in a feminine way. The essence of the dance is feminine. In fact, there were aspects of his dance that were quite masculine, but he did not consider his manhood at stake while he was dancing and was able to relax and work with the feminine energy of the dance form in such a way that a trained dancer could see he really understands the dance emotionally, whether or not he has the world's best technique as of yet. Feminine essence does not mean that a man must dance with a girlish air. Please go back to the newbie thread and see what I said about feminine essence.
Regards,
A'isha

I do see his carriage as having a slightly feminine edge. As for the feminine essence of the dance, we will never agree on this point. A woman is feminine because that is her nature period.

I just saw Sad il Sughir this sunday in concert. He dances very well. He can be fluid and gracefull and also very sensual, but he projects a very masculine attuitde and feeling, not in an agressive confrontational way, but just naturally. He is extreemly comfortable in his skin and in touch with his sensuality and unapolagetic about it. He can do the moves just as sensually as any woman, but his male energy is present and undeniable.

I don't see anything wrong with a woman being feminine in her approach to the dance, but to suggest that a man canot do the dance properly unless he also projects a feminine vibe is not true, nor is your opinion that it would not be Raks Sharki if being performed on stage.

Badia created Raks Sharki for women, no argument. A big part of that was expressing feminine beauty again no argument. She never created a version for men because there was no demand for it again, no argument.

MEn have now begun to create our own verion of Raks Sharki. I resent the assertion that what we have created is not Raks Sharki, because it is. We have the talent, we want to dance, but we want to express our unique male qualities. Although there are many men in the dance who are effeminate, they do not represent us as a whole and I resent being told that they "get it" while those of us who are not effeminate don't. We do not want to be effeminate because that is not who we are, its not in our nature to be so, nor do we want to be androgenous, for the same reason. We want to be ourselves, men. Since no one created a version of the dance for us, we have each had to create it for ourselves. Jamil, Amir, Jim Boz, Tito and
I, to name a few, have all had to independently figure out how to project our own identities in the dance because we've had no role models.

We have had to experiment and are still experimenting with costuming to figure out what compliments our body structures, while not compromising our identity as males. I resent and always will, anyone telling us that we are putting on airs, "machoing up", while at the same time complimenting effeminate and androgenous dancers, whith staements like "they get it", tthier not afriad to look like a belly dancer". To me that's just a load of crap. Why should I feel appologetic for being a man? Why should I have to supress my nature in order to express an energy and vibe that is alien to my being? This is a form of discrimination and I will never accept nor agree with it. If a person is effeminate, androgenoys...well that's who they are and fine. But don't ever suggest in any way that what I or any other man does, is inauthentic and not Raks Sharki because we do not express a feminine energy. Its that simple.

LET A WOMAN BE A WOMAN AND A MAN BE A MAN! Period!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Males

Tarik,
Since you clearly have no idea of what I am talking about, I see no reason to continue talking to you about it. If you did,you would realize that feminine essence in the dance has nothing whatsoever to do with YOUR masculinity or anyone else's. The dance exists with its own personality, feeling, meaning outside your ego or mine, outside us as men or women. Go ahead and resent whatever you want, deny whatever you want, etc. Since you will make no effort to see what I am saying, I am not going to waste my breath on trying to explain it to you.
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Tarik,
Since you clearly have no idea of what I am talking about, I see no reason to continue talking to you about it. If you did,you would realize that feminine essence in the dance has nothing whatsoever to do with YOUR masculinity or anyone else's. The dance exists with its own personality, feeling, meaning outside your ego or mine, outside us as men or women. Go ahead and resent whatever you want, deny whatever you want, etc. Since you will make no effort to see what I am saying, I am not going to waste my breath on trying to explain it to you.
A'isha

Well I told you that I don't agree and never will, so what do you expect?!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

Well I told you that I don't agree and never will, so what do you expect?!

Tarik,
That would be sort of me like me saying I agree or disagree with Steven Hawking's ideas about a contracting universe. Since I do not understand it, I have no concept with which to agree or disagree. What I would expect is that you would open your mind enough to at least TRY to see what I am saying before disagreeing or agreeing. (rolls eyes).
A'isha

 

[Zorba]

while at the same time complimenting effeminate and androgynous dancers, with statements like "they get it", thier not afraid to look like a belly dancer". To me that's just a load of crap. Why should I feel apologetic for being a man? Why should I have to suppress my nature in order to express an energy and vibe that is alien to my being? This is a form of discrimination and I will never accept nor agree with it. If a person is effeminate, hydrogenous...well that's who they are and fine. But don't ever suggest in any way that what I or any other man does, is inauthentic and not Raks Sharki because we do not express a feminine energy. Its that simple.

LET A WOMAN BE A WOMAN AND A MAN BE A MAN! Period!

Since I may have inadvertently contributed to your angst (some of the snippets above sound like me), let me attempt to clarify what I mean (for better or worse):

I *NEVER* suggest ANYONE should EVER dance as anything but THEMSELVES - including you!

BUT...

(I've taken the position, and I'm sticking with it, that...)"Masculine" and "feminine" are artificial, societal constructs. A'isha and I agree that our dance has a certain "quality" or "essence". She calls it "feminine", I do not. Regardless, when I see a guy dancing in a herky-jerky style, or using "macho" poses, or angular arm positions - I do call that "macho-ing it up". I don't think you dance that way...

As for "looking like a Belly Dancer" - that's what I, and the GP (General Public) expect, regardless of gender. Differences between male and female dress are, for the most part, artificial - SOMEONE MADE THIS STUFF UP! Only when you're talking biology/anatomy (read: Bra) are these differences real.

Belly Dance was created, regardless of what version of history you or I might choose, to show off the human body to its best advantage. So-called "differences" between so-called "masculine" and "feminine" dancing exist only in the mind - they're not REAL. The bedleh was created to show off the body - why would I want to cover mine up? The world is full enough of rulebooks as it is (see Ankh's site, he has more rules than the supreme court).

At the end of the day, it is my sincere feeling that you, I, and A'isha aren't that far apart - I think we're really splitting hairs here. We're not going to agree with everything the others say, but we're really not that far off either, methinks. I feel like I agree with 99.5% of what you (Tarik) says, and about 95.9% of what A'isha says. I write these long rambling posts that probably make no sense to anyone (including myself) in a sincere attempt for the curious to understand me, and where I'm coming from. It is not my intention, nor desire, to upset or offend anyone - so if I have, please accept my humble apologies.

We all have our very personal visions of what we feel this dance is, should be, and our individual places within it - how could we not? We're all passionate artists here...

For the record, my vision is very simple: I seek beauty. "Masculine" beauty is a concept that has been forgotten in recent centuries - males can be beautiful too (see my post about Goths). The idea the beauty is restricted to females is absurd.

I had had enough of "BE A MAN!" by the time I was 16 years old - neither then, nor now, has anyone been able to tell me what that really means. I've heard all the relativistic cultural-based and ultimately meaningless definitions and rules on the subject - but I only want to deal in absolutes. Finding absolutes is a VERY hard thing to do - but they are the only thing that is REAL. Everything else, I feel free to put my own interpretation onto (as should you and everyone) - "follow your bliss" and all that rot.

As a local TV anchorman concluded at the end of his human interest story about me on the local news: "Zorba isn't trying to be a man..., nor a woman..., just himself". One of the most succinct and wise ways of saying something that it takes me 5 kilobytes to express!

Again Tarik, if I've offended you, I apologize (Same goes to A'isha). {BOW HERE} I think we all are passionate advocates of our visions, let's not forget we all love this dance (however we may view it), and remember that comments made are NOT personal, only philosophical observations!

 

[Maria_Aya]

For the record, my vision is very simple: I seek beauty.

Total agree with you Zorba, in the concept of oriental dance.
And this beauty is what I see in Anastasios dance, that is rare to see today.
And also a dance quality for a dancer that is 22 years old, have studied mostly from videos from old egyptian dancers (and with some very good teachers), started just to travel to learn more (and working 14 hours per day to collect money for this), and seek also the art in the dance we all love.

And this is a rarity, in the bellydance world we live, where we see among and around us many BIG names, that dont even reach in dance his small finger.

And agreing with Aisha, I just would love to see him 5 years from now, since every 3-4 months that we meet he is an evolved dancer and always surprise me with a good way.

Maria Aya

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

Since I may have inadvertently contributed to your angst (some of the snippets above sound like me), let me attempt to clarify what I mean (for better or worse):

I *NEVER* suggest ANYONE should EVER dance as anything but THEMSELVES - including you!

BUT...

(I've taken the position, and I'm sticking with it, that...)"Masculine" and "feminine" are artificial, societal constructs. A'isha and I agree that our dance has a certain "quality" or "essence". She calls it "feminine", I do not. Regardless, when I see a guy dancing in a herky-jerky style, or using "macho" poses, or angular arm positions - I do call that "macho-ing it up". I don't think you dance that way...

As for "looking like a Belly Dancer" - that's what I, and the GP (General Public) expect, regardless of gender. Differences between male and female dress are, for the most part, artificial - SOMEONE MADE THIS STUFF UP! Only when you're talking biology/anatomy (read: Bra) are these differences real.

Belly Dance was created, regardless of what version of history you or I might choose, to show off the human body to its best advantage. So-called "differences" between so-called "masculine" and "feminine" dancing exist only in the mind - they're not REAL. The bedleh was created to show off the body - why would I want to cover mine up? The world is full enough of rulebooks as it is (see Ankh's site, he has more rules than the supreme court).

At the end of the day, it is my sincere feeling that you, I, and A'isha aren't that far apart - I think we're really splitting hairs here. We're not going to agree with everything the others say, but we're really not that far off either, methinks. I feel like I agree with 99.5% of what you (Tarik) says, and about 95.9% of what A'isha says. I write these long rambling posts that probably make no sense to anyone (including myself) in a sincere attempt for the curious to understand me, and where I'm coming from. It is not my intention, nor desire, to upset or offend anyone - so if I have, please accept my humble apologies.

We all have our very personal visions of what we feel this dance is, should be, and our individual places within it - how could we not? We're all passionate artists here...

For the record, my vision is very simple: I seek beauty. "Masculine" beauty is a concept that has been forgotten in recent centuries - males can be beautiful too (see my post about Goths). The idea the beauty is restricted to females is absurd.

I had had enough of "BE A MAN!" by the time I was 16 years old - neither then, nor now, has anyone been able to tell me what that really means. I've heard all the relativistic cultural-based and ultimately meaningless definitions and rules on the subject - but I only want to deal in absolutes. Finding absolutes is a VERY hard thing to do - but they are the only thing that is REAL. Everything else, I feel free to put my own interpretation onto (as should you and everyone) - "follow your bliss" and all that rot.

As a local TV anchorman concluded at the end of his human interest story about me on the local news: "Zorba isn't trying to be a man..., nor a woman..., just himself". One of the most succinct and wise ways of saying something that it takes me 5 kilobytes to express!

Again Tarik, if I've offended you, I apologize (Same goes to A'isha). {BOW HERE} I think we all are passionate advocates of our visions, let's not forget we all love this dance (however we may view it), and remember that comments made are NOT personal, only philosophical observations!

Dear Zorba,
You never offend me because you never make it about ME!! As always, you approach us with grace and intelligence and do not stoop to getting nasty about character and personality. I LOVE this about you.
Even animals build societies and they all have their own rules, just as humans have done. This is not artificial, it is necessary in order for creatures to live together. It is as hardwired into most of us as breathing and sleeping. I do disagree with you about the differences between make and female essence being all in the mind, (unless of course you are referring to how the neurologists and others are finding that men and women are indeed different in their brain patterns, etc!!). There are differences in the general way that men and women approach life. Re the dance, many people seem to think that "feminine essence" in the dance means that men will have to dance like women to do the dance well; that is not what is meant here at all, but turning the dance into a showcase for masculine traits is not where its at. Tarik states that this is something that men are in the process of doing, I note he does not state that this is how the dance IS but how some men would change it to be. Why? If I want to dance Ardah or Takhtib, do I need to be mindful of its masculine qualities and its spirit and essence? If I want to continue to be dancing Ardah, I certainly do. Everyone seems to agree that Masabni created the dance with this feminine essence in mind, but then we all seem to fly off in different directions and most of them do not seem to care a damn about what her goals and concepts of the dance were and what is STILL the essence in countries of origin.The dance will eventually be lost if we do not honor that and clarify what is being done on stage. I believe that men have been dancing belly dance for nearly as long as women, in less public venues because of the taboos against it in countries of origin. These men were not necessarily gay, but the people who wanted to see them perform were interested in seeing men perform the dance for various reasons. We can look at Flaubert and his buddy Max and see them looking at male dancers in Egypt pre-belly dance and see that males dancing has fascination for males who are not gay as well, (though I admit we do not know the extent of Flaubert's sexual experimentation). The dance has its own spirit. That spirit is feminine. Men need to address that when they dance and they don't have to come off as excessively feminine to do so.
BTW- The concept of masculine beauty is NOT lost on most women and gay guys!!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Total agree with you Zorba, in the concept of oriental dance.
And this beauty is what I see in Anastasios dance, that is rare to see today.
And also a dance quality for a dancer that is 22 years old, have studied mostly from videos from old egyptian dancers (and with some very good teachers), started just to travel to learn more (and working 14 hours per day to collect money for this), and seek also the art in the dance we all love.

And this is a rarity, in the bellydance world we live, where we see among and around us many BIG names, that dont even reach in dance his small finger.

And agreing with Aisha, I just would love to see him 5 years from now, since every 3-4 months that we meet he is an evolved dancer and always surprise me with a good way.

Maria Aya

I think the guy has a lot of potential and I'm looking ast him not so much where he is now, but to what he can be in the future, a really dynamic exciting performer that will make the world take notice and take everyones breath away, instead of, "oh that was nice". Like I said, I wish that I had had enough people who could have been honest enough to tell me where I was lacking, because it took me many more years than it should have to figure it out myself.

 

[Zorba]

Even animals build societies and they all have their own rules, just as humans have done. This is not artificial, it is necessary in order for creatures to live together. It is as hardwired into most of us as breathing and sleeping.

I'm not saying its all un-necessary (much/most of it is (un-necessary), but not *all*), I'm saying it isn't REAL - in the ultimate sense of the word. Much of the "hardwiring" is nothing more than cultural conditioning, blah, blah, blah. Look through history, there isn't very much that is currently considered "feminine" that either wasn't "masculine" or at least neutral at some place in space and time. And vice-versa.

I think the thing that really upsets me is for beauty to be beaten out of boys when it arises. Either literally at the end of a belt; or figuratively, from so-called "peer pressure" in our sick society. I've always been a fighter, and immune to "peer pressure" as I pick and choose my so-called "peers", something most people cannot seem to do - although it baffles me as to *WHY*!

This said, we all know there are differences between little boys and little girls, especially in the "brain wiring" department. This, for instance, makes it easier for girls to be graceful than for boys to be so. There's all kinds of trade offs as I'm sure you know. But to call something "feminine" or "masculine" exclusively doesn't make sense (to me).

Like I said, I agree 95.9% of what you say (and 99.5% of what Tarik says) - but that isn't 100%!

 

[Zorba]

I wish that I had had enough people who could have been honest enough to tell me where I was lacking, because it took me many more years than it should have to figure it out myself.

Yes, honest critique. Such a rare and valuable gift!

I know I'm not the Goddess's gift to Belly Dance - and I never will be. But I think in time I can be a competent enough dancer - but getting honest feedback is difficult. I finally convinced my instructor to do so - and she rides me hard as a result. It isn't fun, but the last six months have seen more improvement in my dancing than the previous six years (only a mild exaggeration)! As a male, its VERY hard to "let go" and let the emotions flow - even for a "new age, liberated male" like me!

 

[cathy]

As a male, its VERY hard to "let go" and let the emotions flow - even for a "new age, liberated male" like me!

Zorba--

That's hard for just about everybody, in the early years anyway. I know it is for me. Especially hard to combine with also not hitting the beat overmuch, not having the movements be too hard, too big, which is an American tendency anyway, and can come out when one thinks "more feeling" or "more drama" or whatever. Putting more feeling in does not mean trying harder physically, if you see what I mean.

I think that a lot of the dancers who do a lot of dramatic "emoting" with apparent ease are faking it anyway. I won't say all though.

Cathy

 

[Zorba]

but turning the dance into a showcase for masculine traits is not where its at. Tarik states that this is something that men are in the process of doing, I note he does not state that this is how the dance IS but how some men would change it to be. Why?

I agree, but with a subtly different shading. "Machoing" it up isn't where its at, but then again neither is "Feminining" it up. A given dancer can ONLY dance as themselves if they're to remain true to the dance. Being a pastiche of "masculinity" isn't it - neither is being a pastiche of "femininity". My gripe with a lot of male dancers is that they're one or the other.

Or perhaps to put the same thing a different way - a well balanced human being won't limit themselves to one or the other. It takes both the "masculine" and the "feminine" to be a whole being. Thus one could say possibly that "masculine" is part of "feminine" and vice versa.

BTW- The concept of masculine beauty is NOT lost on most women and gay guys!!

There certainly are a lot of women who understand the concept - but not all. I think that's why most women dancers are so welcoming of us men. Gay guys? I haven't figured them out - most gays that I'm acquainted with are the most ardent defenders of cultural, traditional "masculinity" around!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Zorba,
You never offend me because you never make it about ME!! As always, you approach us with grace and intelligence and do not stoop to getting nasty about character and personality. I LOVE this about you.
Even animals build societies and they all have their own rules, just as humans have done. This is not artificial, it is necessary in order for creatures to live together. It is as hardwired into most of us as breathing and sleeping. I do disagree with you about the differences between make and female essence being all in the mind, (unless of course you are referring to how the neurologists and others are finding that men and women are indeed different in their brain patterns, etc!!). There are differences in the general way that men and women approach life. Re the dance, many people seem to think that "feminine essence" in the dance means that men will have to dance like women to do the dance well; that is not what is meant here at all, but turning the dance into a showcase for masculine traits is not where its at. Tarik states that this is something that men are in the process of doing, I note he does not state that this is how the dance IS but how some men would change it to be. Why? If I want to dance Ardah or Takhtib, do I need to be mindful of its masculine qualities and its spirit and essence? If I want to continue to be dancing Ardah, I certainly do. Everyone seems to agree that Masabni created the dance with this feminine essence in mind, but then we all seem to fly off in different directions and most of them do not seem to care a damn about what her goals and concepts of the dance were and what is STILL the essence in countries of origin.The dance will eventually be lost if we do not honor that and clarify what is being done on stage. I believe that men have been dancing belly dance for nearly as long as women, in less public venues because of the taboos against it in countries of origin. These men were not necessarily gay, but the people who wanted to see them perform were interested in seeing men perform the dance for various reasons. We can look at Flaubert and his buddy Max and see them looking at male dancers in Egypt pre-belly dance and see that males dancing has fascination for males who are not gay as well, (though I admit we do not know the extent of Flaubert's sexual experimentation). The dance has its own spirit. That spirit is feminine. Men need to address that when they dance and they don't have to come off as excessively feminine to do so.
BTW- The concept of masculine beauty is NOT lost on most women and gay guys!!
Regards,
A'isha

I do not have a problem with what Badia created nor the spirit she created it in. My point, is that she interprited the movements with an air of femininity because it was first created for female performers. Badia never invisioned a Tarik, or an Amir or a Tito. Therefore, we have to do for ourselves what she did for women, we have to interprit the movements in a way that refledcts our essence. It is not creating something diffeernet, but creating something to compliment what was there before. Its almost impossible to describe intangible qualities in a medium such as this, and now I'm really kicking myself that I didn't bring my video camera to S'ad's concert because I could show you exactly what I mean.

I'm not suggesting men go stoping around the stage with clinched fists like cavemen. There's an article floating aoround out there called Masculine belly daqnce or something like that, written by a nice guy, but he isn't a dancer and has no knowledge of the culture. He's talking about paddle hands and clinched fists and all kinds of nonsense. I've shown him that this is not true, that men can and do use flowing hand and arm movements yet do not look woman;y while doing it. Men have a sensuality and beauty when they dance that is not feminine but masculine and naturally manly. By naturally manly I mean the same way a man's walk is naturally different from that of a woman. Its not an affectation, but just who we are. Just like some people may look at a guy with a baby face and say he's beautiful. Beautiful yes, but not the same way a woman is beautiful. So too, men can be sensual in their movements, buit not in a way that looks like they are trying to copy a woman. The problem is that we have not had any male role models to follow in this dance at all.

A'isha, you may say that you don't mean that men should look effeminate, but since you do not define what you mean by feminine essence the general publuic draws one conclusion and one conclusion only, man projecting "feminine essence" in his movements = FAG. That is, unfortunately where the minds of most of today's modern civilization is.

I discussed this with Rakia Hassan and others in great detail last summer. She said that what she loves about my dancing is that when she see's me dance my feeling is that of a man. What she hates to see and what most egyptians hate and will never accept, is to see a man dancing in a way that looks girlish and flirtatious, weak, vulnerable and even worse if he's wearing a costume that looks like a female costume. She said that if a man does this dance, he has to do it in a way that you never forget he is a man and when most men in Egypt dance they retain this quality. She mentioned a few well known male dancers and called them Khawalat, (slang for a queen). She mentioned one man in particular, who is very skilled, but the feeling he projects is too womanly and was not well recieved at all. This is exactly what she had to say to me on this subject.

I understand your concern for people going off on tangents and loosing the dance, but what I am suggesting in no way does that. All I'm suggesting, is that when men dance, we project our masculine personalities through it. A personality that is in harmony with our nature and spirit as men, nothing more, not running around dragging our knuckles on the floor, grunting and flexing our biceps at people. There is a sensual quality to the dance and men need to reflect it, but to do so, they must be totally comfortable with their own sexual energy and not be shameful or apolagetic about it.

Another thing, understand that because no one has seen a man dancing on stage, whether you want to call it baladi or shabbi, there are a lot of people who will feel that this is destroying the culture. My reply to these people is always that when women got up on stgae in the 1930's in skin revealing costumes, that went against the cultural standards of what was considered appropriate for women and a destruction of the culture as well.

To do this dance and keep the Egyptian identity, one must, retain the movement vocabulary, music and personality of the people from which it comes. When I dance I do, when Tito dances, he does, when S'ad dances, he does. When I see these Egyptian men dance, I can see and feel the national and cultural identity reflected in their dance, which is something that I don't see in most, "belly dancers" in the west. One can adhere to these principles and still have lots of room for innovation. This is true of Dina, Asmahan, and Randa Kemal today. Its that Egyptian personality and being able to express it that makes Raks Sharki Egyptian dance and not tribal, or gothic, or fusion. I do Egyptian Dance. Titless though I may be, the people do see their dance in me.

 

[Zorba]

Zorba--

That's hard for just about everybody, in the early years anyway. I know it is for me. Especially hard to combine with also not hitting the beat overmuch, not having the movements be too hard, too big, which is an American tendency anyway, and can come out when one thinks "more feeling" or "more drama" or whatever. Putting more feeling in does not mean trying harder physically, if you see what I mean.

Oh yea!

I think that a lot of the dancers who do a lot of dramatic "emoting" with apparent ease are faking it anyway. I won't say all though.

Cathy

I'm not really qualified to say. I'm still trying to get my emotive thing going.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc

Dear Zorba,
Responses in context so I don't get confused.

I'm not saying its all un-necessary (much/most of it is (un-necessary), but not *all*), I'm saying it isn't REAL - in the ultimate sense of the word. Much of the "hardwiring" is nothing more than cultural conditioning, blah, blah, blah. Look through history, there isn't very much that is currently considered "feminine" that either wasn't "masculine" or at least neutral at some place in space and time. And vice-versa.

A. writes- While some things are cultural, there are others that are inherent in the animal kingdom. Male/female roles in the animal kingdom have meaning, just as they do for us human animals. Culture often has to do with environment, which is created at times, but that does not make it artificial. It is as real as the world we live in. Culture exists in every single place in the world and usually has its purpose beyond what those outside of a specific culture can see. Feminine and masculine have meaning, too. Not cut and dried as some people think, since we each have both female and male traits. In the dance it is the essence of the feminine in each of us that expresses the dance itself. The dance has life outside of us as individuals. It has its own soul, comes from a certain culture and has meaning within that culture that is often dismissed. I ask only that we realize when we are dismissing it and then refer to what is created outside that as our own creations and not something that is the dance itself. Masabni named her dance a se[arate name because of its differences, because it was its own unique creation.


I think the thing that really upsets me is for beauty to be beaten out of boys when it arises. Either literally at the end of a belt; or figuratively, from so-called "peer pressure" in our sick society. I've always been a fighter, and immune to "peer pressure" as I pick and choose my so-called "peers", something most people cannot seem to do - although it baffles me as to *WHY*!

A. writes- In each culture there is a norm. Any of us who have lived outside that norm have suffered. You would be amazed how many people consider themselves outside that norm, but it still exists. I graduated from high school when I was in my Junior year. By that time I had attended 13 schools. This alone kept me outside the norm, so I understand where you are coming from. I consider this to be one reason why I see to see things very differently from many dancers. I never got the ethnocentric training that many people get when they live in one place for a long time. It often is not easy for me.

This said, we all know there are differences between little boys and little girls, especially in the "brain wiring" department. This, for instance, makes it easier for girls to be graceful than for boys to be so. There's all kinds of trade offs as I'm sure you know. But to call something "feminine" or "masculine" exclusively doesn't make sense (to me).

A. writes- Some of this is cultural, some of it is not. Across the world, there is the cultural gender thing and then there is the inherent thing that is there before birth. We do train our boys to be graceful. My husband is a carpenter. One of the biggest turn ons for me in that is when I see the muscles in his body work to help him swing a hammer. He is every bit as graceful as I am. I love to watch him walk. He is very masculine and I love that. There are many things that are male and female in the animal kingdom. Only humans seem to take issue with those gender lines. There are activities that are exclusively female or male among almost all mammals. Dance is not one of them, but males and females do express specific things in their dance. They each have their own essence. This applies to human dances sometimes as well. For example, I recently learned about Morris dancing and it seems to have a definite male essence. No one argues the point.

Regards,
A'isha

Like I said, I agree 95.9% of what you say (and 99.5% of what Tarik says) - but that isn't 100%!

 

[Zorba]

I'm not suggesting men go stoping around the stage with clinched fists like cavemen. There's an article floating aoround out there called Masculine belly daqnce or something like that, written by a nice guy, but he isn't a dancer and has no knowledge of the culture. He's talking about paddle hands and clinched fists and all kinds of nonsense. I've shown him that this is not true, that men can and do use flowing hand and arm movements yet do not look woman;y while doing it. Men have a sensuality and beauty when they dance that is not feminine but masculine and naturally manly. By naturally manly I mean the same way a man's walk is naturally different from that of a woman. Its not an affectation, but just who we are. Just like some people may look at a guy with a baby face and say he's beautiful. Beautiful yes, but not the same way a woman is beautiful. So too, men can be sensual in their movements, buit not in a way that looks like they are trying to copy a woman. The problem is that we have not had any male role models to follow in this dance at all.

This I agree with (and I *detest* that article, its being quoted as gospel truth all over the 'net, I've even seen it translated into Russian!), other than "male role models" as most males I've seen are too busy being males rather than themselves (And to keep things clear, I'm not saying this about Tarik - I've never really seen him dance).

IN GENERAL, I'd rather learn from a woman - the movements will translate themselves on my body - I cannot dance like a woman as I'm not a woman (last time I checked).

I read a post somewhere that some J. Random Egyptian guy was quoted that when a man gets up to Belly Dance, he is considered a woman for the duration of his dance - I think that's nonsense on several levels, but what do you think about this comment, Tarik?

I'll have to do an anatomy check on myself next time I'm on stage! Got any popcorn left?

 

[Zorba]

"Only humans seem to take issue with those gender lines."

That's because we're humans, NOT animals. Humans have an animal component, but we are so much more.

Like I said, I agree with 95.9% of what A'isha says, not 100%. "Gender lines" as an absolute is something I utterly reject. Don't fence me in!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

A: Tarik,
That would be sort of me like me saying I agree or disagree with Steven Hawking's ideas about a contracting universe. Since I do not understand it, I have no concept with which to agree or disagree. What I would expect is that you would open your mind enough to at least TRY to see what I am saying before disagreeing or agreeing. (rolls eyes).
A'isha

T: A'isha:

I do understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. I'm not saying that you are 100% wrong, I'm just saying that therte is a matter of context to be considered. What Badia created was created with women in mind to be performed in a certain context. Had men been in the equation, I doubt very strongly she would have had them projecting a "feminine essence". She would have had male soloists as well as male and female duets. Therefore, she would have had a reflection of the two energies complimenting each other.

Since men do use use the same basic movement vocabulary I'm sure she would have craeted a theatricalized version in which the men portray a romatic, suave, elegance, just as Frea Astaire projected. This is all I'm saying. In Egyptian dance up until this point, we have only had a Ginger, Badia didn't create a Fred because it never dawned on her that there could or should be a Fred and she can't now make a Fred because poor girl, she's long been dead. Never the less, we should and could have a Fred. A fred that does'nt express the essence of what is natural to Ginger, but what is natural to Fred.

What I want to be is a Fred. what I want to see is other Freds, or even a Gene and even Nicholas brothers! I don't want to see A Fred, or a Gene, or the Nicholas brothers in Ginger's dress dancing around, even in the athletic feat of in high heels and backwards. Egyptian Raks Sharki needs its Freds, Genes and Nicholas brothers, they are way overdue.