Greek male bellydancer Prince Kayammer

[Aisha Azar]

Males, etc

In regards to dancing with reserve. The point I was making is that in order to really dance, you have to let go of it, but this example was really in the context of social dancing. There are many men and women who are reserved when dancing socially because they want to keep an air of dignity about them, then there are the ohters who are not afraid to let it all out and get into it.

As for men being sensitve about percetions of themselves, you know exactly what not wanting to look like a neyy queen or be perceived that way means. Doesn't mean its logical or correct, but it dwells in th realm of the irrational as do most fears.

As for feminine essence, (either in the pump spray or in the roll on), no I don't believe that quality is feminine (or as you corrected me when I described it as a loving energy), female. I don't see how an emotional and spiritual quality that exists within both men and women can be female or male. To me its like saying anger is male and sadness is female. However, I do believe that when a person is relaxed and comfortable enough in themselves, it all blends together so that a woman will look sensual and womanly and a man will look sensual but still have his manly verility. However, as I've said before and I still believe, this is not an agressive energy.

Now if someone wants to call it feminine essence, no tough shit for me. I have enough fiber in my diet thank you. They can call it that, I understand it as an energy. What I don't understand and don't accept is that I must project "female" energy. To me that would be like telling a woman to project manly energy on stage to be more assertive and dynamic. I would tell her to project strength and confidence, which any woman can do and still be womanly in her essence.

Its your inability to properly define this quality and inssitance that it is female or womanly and that a man can't be an Oriental dancer if he doesn't project this energy that I just can't get with. So like I've said before, unless you can expalin to me how a man can project womanly energy and not look womanly.....and since the men that I've seen dance in the culture are able to dance with comfort and ease and sensuality in their skins while sitll giving a very manly vibe, like Sa'ad for example, that is the role model that I as a man will follow because it makes sense to me and as a man I can relate to it and see myself in it, that is all I've been trying to say. And if you can't understand me from that perspective discussing the point with me will always be a frustrating effort on your part.

A. writes-
And since you don't intend to open your mind one tiny bit to the possibility
that this energy is perceived as feminine by people across the world because it IS feminine, then you are right, there is really no point in discussing it with you any further.
A'isha

 

[taheya]

I agree with everybody here who is saying that bellydance is GENDERLESS. Gender is a social construct...girls are given dolls to play with, boys are given train sets, the first bellydancers on the stage happened to be female (although the dance was based on folk dances done by both men and women). Gender is not the same as sex, just because women were traditionally bellydancers does not mean that the essence of the dance is feminine. You are talking about a social construct here and getting confused with what the early presentation of the dance was.
Ideas of the 'feminine' and 'masculine' are socially constructed, and it is incorrect to confuse these images with fact. It is just what we have been used to seeing and it is narrow minded frankly, to continue saying bellydance is feminine essenced. Dance is the expression of the individual,musical interpretation.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I agree with everybody here who is saying that bellydance is GENDERLESS. Gender is a social construct...girls are given dolls to play with, boys are given train sets, the first bellydancers on the stage happened to be female (although the dance was based on folk dances done by both men and women). Gender is not the same as sex, just because women were traditionally bellydancers does not mean that the essence of the dance is feminine. You are talking about a social construct here and getting confused with what the early presentation of the dance was.
Ideas of the 'feminine' and 'masculine' are socially constructed, and it is incorrect to confuse these images with fact. It is just what we have been used to seeing and it is narrow minded frankly, to continue saying bellydance is feminine essenced. Dance is the expression of the individual,musical interpretation.

Exactly, its a social construct. this energy exists in humanity, what we choose to identify it as or how we identify it is subject to interpritation. Like I've said before and as you just pointed out, people all over the world have been use to seeing this dance performed by women so of course they will identify it with femininity. I'm not denying that at all. I'm just saying that when a man does it, its not quite the same. This energy will be translated through the filter of his physical build, his character, personality and life's experiences as regards his personal sense of self, therefore its not going to look the same way or be expressed with the same nuance as a woman. It is feminine essenced when a WOMAN does it, but like I've said and given examples, there is a masquline energy that is exuded when a man who is intouch with his being does it.

In the end what the hell does it matter what you call it? Especially when no two people can agree on the semantics. The important thing is to JUST DO IT!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

A. writes-
And since you don't intend to open your mind one tiny bit to the possibility
that this energy is perceived as feminine by people across the world because it IS feminine, then you are right, there is really no point in discussing it with you any further.
A'isha

Like I've said, when a WOMAN does it, the energy that is released is feminine. I think people all around the world realize this, especially since all they have seen are women doing this dance, or effeminate men, so of course they perceive it as feminine. They haven't seen anything to make them believe otherwise. However, I am explaining and describing something which is just as real as what you are describing and does exists. MEn do have their unique qualities energy when they dance, I've seen it. That's why I keep calling it a male version. I'm not making it up. Neither am I denying that the dance is perceived as female in the professional arena. What I am saying is that its just that PERCEIVED for the simple fact that they have never seen a man in the professional arena expressing his manly essence through the dance. They see it and understand it in the context of social dancing, but in the context of gender roles, they perceive professional dancing as female because that is the only context that they have seen. My point of view does allow the acknowledgement of yours, it just takes into consideration that there is more to it, another side of the coin, that is all. You want me to agree with you that your point of view is the be all end all world without end and I'm simply saying its a matter of context, not that you are 100% wrong.

 

[Zorba]

Dear Zorba,

Within the cultural context, and this IS a cultural dance, the essence that I am referring to is feminine. That is why the dance is the way it is and that is why Fifi at one time said men can't dance. She and every other Egyptian dancer with whom I have spoken, and hundreds of Arabs who do not dance, and practically everyone else in the world, recognizes this energy as feminine in this dance form.
Regards,
A'isha

Just because "everyone" says something is true doesn't make it so...

 

[Zorba]

Thank you Taheya.

The way I see it, this discussion boils down to two ideas (at this particular point) that don't jive with each other...

1) A'isha insists on the "feminine essence" of the dance. Tarik and I say there's nothing "feminine" about it as "feminine" is an artificial construct.

2) Yet Tarik talks about creating a "male version" of the dance - which automatically sets A'isha and myself off (for slightly different reasons).

Tarik: If you accept "feminine" as an artificial construct, and that the "feminine/masculine" aspect will happen automatically based on the INDIVIDUAL dancer - than how do you create a "male version" of the dance? There wouldn't be such a thing, no more than there would be a "female version".

To my mind, these two ideas contradict each other - I'm obviously not understanding some nuance of your feeling - and would like clarification.

Or I'm just nuts and/or clueless! :dance:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

2) Yet Tarik talks about creating a "male version" of the dance - which automatically sets A'isha and myself off (for slightly different reasons).

Tarik: If you accept "feminine" as an artificial construct, and that the "feminine/masculine" aspect will happen automatically based on the INDIVIDUAL dancer - than how do you create a "male version" of the dance? There wouldn't be such a thing, no more than there would be a "female version".

To my mind, these two ideas contradict each other - I'm obviously not understanding some nuance of your feeling - and would like clarification.

Or I'm just nuts and/or clueless! :dance:

I see the gender roles of masculine and feminine as being social constructs.

Now men and women do have a way of carrying themselves in the world that are natural to each sex. I guess the best way to describe it would be body language. Its totally different from a gender role. For example, even male to female transexuals often times have this male body language and have to undergo coaching in an attempt to learn the body language of the sex they identify with. Is this making sense? I've seen the same thing with really butch lesbians. They may look male in the face, dress male, act male, but when they walk or just move around, there is something about them that is still female.

Now what I'm saying is that this masculinity and femininty do exist. I think its a combination of body structure, life experience in ones gender role and the way it shapes ones perception of self and perhaps even hormones. Perhaps there is more to it, perhaps its none of these, but that quality is there.

Now as this relates to dance. Egyptian dance is not only about the physical movement vocabulary or technique. There is an emotional quality quality that is the driving force of the whole thing, or as I tell my students, the technique is there to allow you to express the emotional quality. There is a relaxed fluidity in the body, and a sensual confidense and emotional connection. When you allow yourself to be totally in the moment and open, then all these qualities blend and express themselves. Therefore, whena woman is in that zone, that quality which makes her a female, distinguishable from a male in her normal body language, comes through.

The form of the dance created by BAdia contained an element of this natural feminity, but also to a great extent a romaticized ideal of the feminine gender role. Understand her that this is theater. Just because the women were expected to portray this on stage does not mean that that's the way they were off stage. Taheya was a notorious example of this duality. One thing on stage, and a broad you did not want to tangle ass with off stage!

Now what I am saying, is that the same thing needs to be created for men. Actually, the reality is that each of us is creating our version for ourselves because there is no central institution that has or is doing it for us. Therefore, not only do we have to be aware of connecting to that emotional state I described before, but on a theatrical level, we need to create a persona. Something that will resonate with the imaginations of the public. This is something I learned from Robin Friend, who is one of the few people I can count on to not be impressed with the novelty that I'm a man who can dance and tell it to me like it is. She gave me the best critique I ever got after a show in which I got a standing ovation. She told me basically I lacked personality on stage and she was right. I had all the technique, but no soul, no passion, no emotion AT ALL! What she suggest was that I create a persona. To help, she suggested that I create a story. Who was I to be? Was I the prince coming out to greet his subjects? Was I the rogueish pirate back in town looking for adventure? Was I the matadore stepping in to the ring/ Was I the trickster looking to create mischife or was I the playboy life of the party that turns heads when he enters the room?

Do you understand what i mean now? I'm not saying that this is who we should be in the world in our real lives, but we have to understand that even as dancers, there is an element of acting involved. Who i am onstage and who I am off stage are two compleatly different people. But when I'm onstage I'm playing a role and therefore, just as theer are roles that were created for the women we men need to not onlyconnect to that place of sensuality to allow our natural "maleness to infuse the dance, but we need to create that dramatic element as well.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Gee I wonder what this could be?:think:


....The devil made me do it...

 

[taheya]

That is such a wonderful clip of Naima Akef! She was such a fantastic dancer, my favourite of the golden era dancers.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

That is such a wonderful clip of Naima Akef! She was such a fantastic dancer, my favourite of the golden era dancers.

Okay so the priest came and exercised the imp that possesed me last night.

I know this discussion was very heated and in the end, I suppose we agreed to disagree. However, seriously, I posted that clip to make a point. In real life quite often there is no one reality. this West African parable summs up the situation:

One day Elegu, the trickster, put on a new suite. It was incredibly dazzling and was made of the most expencive fabric. It was the most vivid shade of red on one side, and the most shiny black on the other.

Elegua went into town to show off his new out fit. Everyone stopped what they were doing to see the stranger in the magnificent out fit. Two men were working in their yards, which were directly across the street from each other. Elegua walked right down their street in his new outfit, proud as a peacock. The two men were dazzled by the beauty of suit worn by this fine gentlemen.

Wow! said the man on the left side of the street. Did you see that guy in the red suit? He must be a visitng prince or a king! I sure did! Said his neighbor on the right side of the street, but he was wearing a black suit.

No he wasn't, I saw him with my very own eyes, it was red! What do you mean, I saw him too, just as clearly as I can see you and I tell you it was black! Are you calling me a liar? No, but you are obviously having problems with your eyesight, perhaps you are getting old! An thus began a heated row that erupted in a fight.

So who was right? Was it the man on the right or the man on the left? And evern if one got the other to accept their point of view, would it have been the real truth the whole truth, or the truth depending on what side of the street you were on or should we say, perspective?

 

[Zorba]

Do you understand what i mean now? I'm not saying that this is who we should be in the world in our real lives, but we have to understand that even as dancers, there is an element of acting involved. Who i am onstage and who I am off stage are two compleatly different people. But when I'm onstage I'm playing a role and therefore, just as theer are roles that were created for the women we men need to not onlyconnect to that place of sensuality to allow our natural "maleness to infuse the dance, but we need to create that dramatic element as well.

I understand (and essentially agree with) what you're saying - I just don't understand the idea of a "male version" - just go be yourself (and I know you do this).

But at the end of the day, this is probably getting into such a fine hair splitting on my part that it doesn't really matter. I originally read "male version" to equal "masculinization" which I don't think you do either!

Developing the on-stage persona is SO FREAKIN' HARD - esp. for (most) males. Letting down the barriers, letting ourselves be vulnerable, emoting, blah, blah. Its what I've been working on pretty much exclusively for the last several months. I've made *some* progress, but have a ways to go. My instructor has some interesting techniques to "summon emotion" that actually work - as she says it must be REAL. I'm all for REAL!

As for the differences in carriage between the genders - this is something I haven't give much thought to, my initial reaction is to say it mainly body structure, esp. in the pelvis area. I have noticed there is more of a hip sway to my walk since I started Belly Dancing - I always have assumed that it was because of the loosening of the pelvis that has occurred learning Maias and other side-to-side hip movements. It isn't an affectation on my part, but as I don't really care either I don't worry about it. It seems to occur mostly/more when walking downhill. Whatever!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Z: I understand (and essentially agree with) what you're saying - I just don't understand the idea of a "male version" - just go be yourself (and I know you do this).

T: Like I said, its theater. Its the same thing that was done in the ballet. There are many dance forms that have slightly different styles for men and women. So being that its theater and what we see the women doing is based on the creation of certain personas or archetypes, the fem fatal, girl next door, queen, goddes, nymph etc, so too should men draw on some of our archtypes for the same sake of dramatic presentation. So what are some of our archetypes? Well I gave them before, but think of Rudolph Vatentino in son of the shiekh, that was one romantic archetype, dashing, heroic, yet sensitve and ready to sweep his heroine off of her feet. However, in order to pull off any of these roles, male or female, you have to be able to access that place we talked about before so it doesn't look contrived.

For example, in the clip I posted of myself at Ahlan Wa Sahlan, I was drawing on the archetype of the prince, regal dignified, gracefull, confident and assertive. Amir Thaleb draws on this energy also quite often:



At other points depending on the music, I might become the baladi boy, rougish, irreverent, mischivious, flirtatious, conceited, in love with himself, God's gift to the universe, or that particular ally in Cairo.
So you see, this is what I'm getting at. The role of men has not been adequetly explored. There is a wealth of possibilities of what can be brought to the stage, but we are all individually figuring this out, creating, exploring the options and we need to continue doing so.

There is a wonderful amount of variety now that didn't exist when I started. look at Myself, Tito, Asi, Amir, Jim. We are all very different and bring something different to the stage. This is why I can't accept the previously expressed view. I find it to be limiting. It is only one out of countless possibilities. And to say its the only one simply because it was the first born is like saying well the first baby in this family had blue eyes, therefore all the other kids who come along must also have blue eyes or they're not legitimate members of the family. This is what i mean when I say the qunique qualities of what men have need to be developed and brought to the stage.

Z: But at the end of the day, this is probably getting into such a fine hair splitting on my part that it doesn't really matter. I originally read "male version" to equal "masculinization" which I don't think you do either!

T: No Not at all

Snip

Z:
As for the differences in carriage between the genders - this is something I haven't give much thought to, my initial reaction is to say it mainly body structure, esp. in the pelvis area. I have noticed there is more of a hip sway to my walk since I started Belly Dancing - I always have assumed that it was because of the loosening of the pelvis that has occurred learning Maias and other side-to-side hip movements. It isn't an affectation on my part, but as I don't really care either I don't worry about it. It seems to occur mostly/more when walking downhill. Whatever!

T: My hips are very loose or relaxed when I walk, because I'm very flexable due to all the dancing. However, my gait is still very diffrent from that of a woman. Like I said, I think the difference is part biology, part gender roles, and probably part hormonal as well, but I could also be wrong, who knows really. All we know is that there is a difference the why is still a matter of speculation.

 

[Maria_Aya]

Goodmorning all from a steaming Athens Greece (40 C and its 10 morning, this means we will reach at least 45 at afternoon)

Was a way the weekend and didnt had time to check the forum.
Actually was at North Greece with Prince Kayammer having auditions and checking dancers for a very big theatre show (compination of theatre-orientaldance and opera) where Anastasios gonna have the lead role.

His point of view and my point of view is that "we all agree to disagree" and this is a lovely thing because we all learn from this.

Kisses to all and have a great day

 

[Zorba]

My hips are very loose or relaxed when I walk, because I'm very flexable due to all the dancing. However, my gait is still very diffrent from that of a woman. Like I said, I think the difference is part biology, part gender roles, and probably part hormonal as well, but I could also be wrong, who knows really. All we know is that there is a difference the why is still a matter of speculation.

Yea, I dunno the "why" of it either. I've thrown out the "gender roles" in my life for the most part - I don't know, can't say, and don't care if my gait is the same as a woman or not. *shrug* I've always had an *odd* gait anyways, I tend to walk on the balls of my feet. I did that centuries before I was a dancer.

Maria: Holy Goddess Mother! 45 degrees sthn a8hna;! Yikes!!

 

[Tatiana Eshta]

Some day ago Prince Kayammer was in Ukrain at big bellydance festival in Sudak on the Black Sea. It was very nice to meat him and see his dances in galashow:

Принц Каямер1 - антре — на Яндекс.Видео

Принц Каямер2 — на Яндекс.Видео

 

[Maria_Aya]

Maria: Holy Goddess Mother! 45 degrees sthn a8hna;! Yikes!!

Double Yikes !!!! its ridiculus HOT !!!

 

[Maria_Aya]

He is excellent !!! lucky Ukraine !!

 

[Tatiana Eshta]

Yes Ukrain loved him and he will come to our country again in the end of this month - to my town Odessa:dance:

Some video of party in Sudak -

Prince Kayamer, Anas and Rodion:clap:
Приц КаÑ￾мÑ￾Ñ€,Ð￾наÑ￾,Ð*одион — на ЯндекÑ￾.Видео

Prince Kayamer, Leila and others:clap:
Принц КаÑ￾мÑ￾Ñ€,Лейла и вÑ￾е)) — на ЯндекÑ￾.Видео