Male dancers denied Egyptian permits...

[Caroline_afifi]

Yes, Yasmina's DVD is very good.

But seriously, it seems silly to require a permit for something in the arts. We as dancers can inspire, but we can't truly harm anything but someone's sensibilities unless we are doing some sort of politically-inspired and inspiring dancing.

Egypt isn't concerned that men might create something more political. Though I suppose someone somewhere could come up with something incomprehensible (to me) about endangering someone's soul?

Very sad that anywhere in the world people would find it necessary to try and limit something harmless (IMO) someone else wants to do instead of simply not watching what they don't want to watch.

Men should dance. Women should dance. People should dance. And the permit system is foolish.

~Saqra

Of course in an ideal world. It is not just dance, actors in the UK need and Equity card and it is the same in Egypt. A friend of mine who is Egyptian cant get his because they have closed the applications for two years running.

The dance permits are monitored by the vice section of the Egyptian Police and they can withdraw permits according to conduct.
Unless your friend is an officer or frequent customers to your venue.

 

[Outi]

ha ha.. getting a permit is not a journey, it is an ordeal!

'
Heh :lol:
Tell me about it

Outi, do you personally know any men who have been through this process?

No, I don't. There isn't any male belly dancer working in Cairo, as far as I know. Folklore boys are completely different story. Tito is only and first male belly dancer to get some name. In my opinion is not accident that he is working in Sharm el Sheik. There the customers are mainly western tourists.

It's so easy to say how things should be from distance - West, from another culture - without really knowing what's the things inside. I do understand Egyptian way of thinking, I don't always agree and some times I am totally against it, but I do understand the reasons. The proverb don't judge until you walked in his shoes is so right.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

'
Heh :lol:
Tell me about it

No, I don't. There isn't any male belly dancer working in Cairo, as far as I know. Folklore boys are completely different story. Tito is only and first male belly dancer to get some name. In my opinion is not accident that he is working in Sharm el Sheik. There the customers are mainly western tourists.

I agree with this point.

It's so easy to say how things should be from distance - West, from another culture - without really knowing what's the things inside. I do understand Egyptian way of thinking, I don't always agree and some times I am totally against it, but I do understand the reasons. The proverb don't judge until you walked in his shoes is so right.

Could you expand on this a little?

 

[Saqra]

Mmmmm. Yep, I definitely meant in an ideal world.
I truly understand how it all works and why, but I also truly find the sexism angle really a topper for "frustrating and silly."
~Saqs

Of course in an ideal world. It is not just dance, actors in the UK need and Equity card and it is the same in Egypt. A friend of mine who is Egyptian cant get his because they have closed the applications for two years running.

The dance permits are monitored by the vice section of the Egyptian Police and they can withdraw permits according to conduct.
Unless your friend is an officer or frequent customers to your venue.

 

[Outi]

I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside?

It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US.

 

[Saqra]

Different country. Different religious and social imperatives. Definitely a difference in needed social approaches to things for each society makes sense to me and I adjust to the cultural standards when I am there (just as I did in Japan or China or Ohio in the USA. I have no critique of Egypt's social norms as it is truly not my place to have an opinion.

I just find it frustrating that Egypt would regulate against men dancing when they are willing to be (barely) tolerant of women dancing. I understand that it is a culturally-based bias and that the same bias is active in the USA... which I also find frustrating.

Gender bias in the arts just irritates me.
It is apparently one of the last vestiges of idealism left in my psyche.

Yours,
Saqra

I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside?

It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside?

It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US.

Ok, thanks for that.
So how does this specifically relate to permits for male dancers for you?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Ok, my initial snooping has found this.

Male dancers til now have applied for union membership as folkloric dancers (something i have know for a while) You have to be affiliated to a company or organisation to get this. Tito I assume has this?

Female belly dancers do not have to be part of this union but need their permits from the police whom have a department and keep watch (The 13th Floor of the Mogamma Building in Midan Tahrir is the Police Adeb ( Vice).
They deal with prostitution, brothels and belly dance.

There is no law against male prostitution in Egypt, no restriction on mens behaviour at all. Even men caught using prostitues are released and the women fined.
Therefore the concepts of men dancing and the restriction applied should not count.
The probelm seems to be new applications from male performers who are stating 'belly dance' and not 'folklore', and it is perhaps the presentation of this new situation, they do not know how to deal with or the process.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Ok, my initial snooping has found this.

Male dancers til now have applied for union membership as folkloric dancers (something i have know for a while) You have to be affiliated to a company or organisation to get this. Tito I assume has this?

Female belly dancers do not have to be part of this union but need their permits from the police whom have a department and keep watch (The 13th Floor of the Mogamma Building in Midan Tahrir is the Police Adeb ( Vice).
They deal with prostitution, brothels and belly dance.

There is no law against male prostitution in Egypt, no restriction on mens behaviour at all. Even men caught using prostitues are released and the women fined.
Therefore the concepts of men dancing and the restriction applied should not count.
The probelm seems to be new applications from male performers who are stating 'belly dance' and not 'folklore', and it is perhaps the presentation of this new situation, they do not know how to deal with or the process.

Just the fact that dancers are dealt with by THE VICE SQUAD shows the mentality we have to deal with. Ironically, the flack we guys get, (homophobia included) is due to the negative image of women. Women are inferior to men - gays act like women - therefore, man wanting to do activities dominated by women must = gay, means he's not a real man -means he's inferior. Has anyone else ever picked up on that?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Just the fact that dancers are dealt with by THE VICE SQUAD shows the mentality we have to deal with. Ironically, the flack we guys get, (homophobia included) is due to the negative image of women. Women are inferior to men - gays act like women - therefore, man wanting to do activities dominated by women must = gay, means he's not a real man -means he's inferior. Has anyone else ever picked up on that?

YES. Totally.

Males in my city call each other a 'girl' if they want to put each other down.

Men who want to do 'womens' activities are often seen as sub-human, but how does this explain men becoming top chefs, hairdressers, choreographers etc?

I really do not know the answer to this.

There is also a style and image consultant here on British TV called Gok Wan, he does a program called 'How To Look Good Naked'. My daughter worships the ground he walks on.
Is it women who make them famous or what?

 

[Outi]

Ironically, the flack we guys get, (homophobia included) is due to the negative image of women. Women are inferior to men - gays act like women - therefore, man wanting to do activities dominated by women must = gay, means he's not a real man -means he's inferior. Has anyone else ever picked up on that?

I would put that a little bit differently. Homophobia as you know is a big issue in Egypt and other Arab countries. And that's a big part for negative attitude towards male belly dancers. I agree totally with you Tarik. I think is more to do with fear and religious views.

This male/female thing is something more complex. Male is the head of the house and have more freedom than a female. But being inferior - not really. The lifestyles of the different sexes are just so different and apart from each others and Egyptians are happy that way. Egyptians respect strong women. And mother is most important person of their life, husband or wife included.


Caroline, you made good point about authorities not knowing how to handle this new situation with male belly dancers. It could be big reason of these new laws. Especially as during the last two years Tito has gained a lot of reputation in belly dance world - not so much in Egypt but among dancers. I mean most Egyptians haven't even heard of Randa.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Caroline, you made good point about authorities not knowing how to handle this new situation with male belly dancers. It could be big reason of these new laws. Especially as during the last two years Tito has gained a lot of reputation in belly dance world - not so much in Egypt but among dancers. I mean most Egyptians haven't even heard of Randa.[/QUOTE]

Yes but most have never heard of Randa. You will be surprised about Tito.
I have been surprised at how well know he is becoming amongst Middle class people in Cairo.
Because he is performing in Alf Leila, a lot of Egyptian families who holiday in Sharm get to see him, so in someways, he is more accessible without anyone deliberately going on a boat or a club to see a belly dancer.

There was actually a big case a few years back (about 7 or maybe 8 years ago) where a static boat close to the Marriot hotel was raided by the Police for being a 'gay club'. It was somewhere that was known as a gay meeting place but it gained momentum and therefore was seen as a problem. It was a big case that was covered by the media for a long time.
There is something in Egyptian culture that is like, most things are OK as long as it is not obvious and does not bother anyone. If you try to get it 'out in the open' there will be resistance.
I think that is what you mean by understanding the workings of the culture perhaps?

 

[Reen.Blom]

Just the fact that dancers are dealt with by THE VICE SQUAD shows the mentality we have to deal with. Ironically, the flack we guys get, (homophobia included) is due to the negative image of women. Women are inferior to men - gays act like women - therefore, man wanting to do activities dominated by women must = gay, means he's not a real man -means he's inferior. Has anyone else ever picked up on that?

Is it all not about homophobia? As article said'some even dance under female names'.... suppose to them male belly dancer=gay=immoral....

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Caroline, you made good point about authorities not knowing how to handle this new situation with male belly dancers. It could be big reason of these new laws. Especially as during the last two years Tito has gained a lot of reputation in belly dance world - not so much in Egypt but among dancers. I mean most Egyptians haven't even heard of Randa.

Yes but most have never heard of Randa. You will be surprised about Tito.
I have been surprised at how well know he is becoming amongst Middle class people in Cairo.
Because he is performing in Alf Leila, a lot of Egyptian families who holiday in Sharm get to see him, so in someways, he is more accessible without anyone deliberately going on a boat or a club to see a belly dancer.

There was actually a big case a few years back (about 7 or maybe 8 years ago) where a static boat close to the Marriot hotel was raided by the Police for being a 'gay club'. It was somewhere that was known as a gay meeting place but it gained momentum and therefore was seen as a problem. It was a big case that was covered by the media for a long time.
There is something in Egyptian culture that is like, most things are OK as long as it is not obvious and does not bother anyone. If you try to get it 'out in the open' there will be resistance.
I think that is what you mean by understanding the workings of the culture perhaps?[/QUOTE]


Sorry, I messed up Outi's post here so please see her original to get what she really said!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

YES. Totally.

Males in my city call each other a 'girl' if they want to put each other down.

Men who want to do 'womens' activities are often seen as sub-human, but how does this explain men becoming top chefs, hairdressers, choreographers etc?

I really do not know the answer to this.

There is also a style and image consultant here on British TV called Gok Wan, he does a program called 'How To Look Good Naked'. My daughter worships the ground he walks on.
Is it women who make them famous or what?

The only professions where men seem to have avoided scorn are chefs. Hairdressers are still regarded as sissies as are choreographers. Ironically, I think in the case of choreographers, I think it could be a combination of things. For one, the limited visibility and acceptance of male dancers means they have no outlet except for instruction, so I guess they put everything into it. I don't know why they get more attention in the media.... except for a twisted play of sexism. The fact that they are men means the male establishment gives them more attention? Or is it that less women become choreographers because they have more performance options? I really can't say for sure.

 

[Suheir]

17 May was International Day Against Homophobia: International Day Against Homophobia - Welcome to www.homophobiaday.org

I doubt it was celebrated publically in Egypt...

 

[Dev]

deleted............

 

[Dev]

17 May was International Day Against Homophobia: International Day Against Homophobia - Welcome to www.homophobiaday.org

I doubt it was celebrated publically in Egypt...

No , I dont think so. All the poor Da(a)vid probably dont know what homophobia means.

This is not exclusively an Egyptian problem but I have found all over the middle east/South Asia homosexuality is a taboo as long as you show it off, If you up for some secret masti or fun that’s ok as long as you are still married to a women. Personally I know only one Egyptian person who is not a gay man but married to my Norwegian male friend to get his Norwegian citizenship.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Personally I know only one Egyptian person who is not a gay man but married to my Norwegian male friend to get his Norwegian citizenship.

Are you serious?

 

[cathy]

New documentary film--A Jihad for Love

On the subject of homophobia --or rather gay life in Muslim countries--I just read a review of A Jihad for Love, a documentary film by Parvez Sharma. He interviews gay and lesbian Muslims in northern India (where he is from), Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and South Africa, including an openly gay imam in South Africa, a group of Iranian men waiting for asylum in Turkey, and a lesbian couple, one Moroccan and the other Egyptian, who carry on a secet love affair. Addresses strongly why people continue to embrace a faith that rejects them--or at least their sexuality. He says "You can't subtract the Muslim part of your identity when it defines your family, your friends, how you dress, what you eat. You can't just cut off that one thing. Through this film I learned that profoundly."

Cathy