Mayya: Lebanese dance troupe
- Thread starter Shanazel
- Start date
Ariadne
Well-known member
You can look them up on YouTube instead. Just do a search for “America’s Got Talent” and ”Mayyas”, it should be the first result.
Shanazel
Moderator
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
Very interesting. EXTREEEEEEEEMLY tight choreo - very impressive. They all looked alike!
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
I was very impressed with this. It's fusion for sure, but it didn't incorporate any of those Eastern European Olympic moves, which, IMO, makes it western instead of eastern.
I watched the first clip all the way through and picked at a few more but I got too angry and bored to watch the rest. Here are my ranting thoughts--and if you thought these dancers were the bee's knees, you'll probably be happier if you skip the rest of this post:
1. Do the Mayyas ever do any actual belly dancing or just lots of these Bollywood arm tableaus with a little Shakira sprinkled in?
2. If someone says "Lebanese dance troupe" to me, I think "dabke," so unless Lebanon changed its national dance from dabke to artistic arm flapping, these are "dancers who happen to be Lebanese," not "Lebanese dancers." I'm confused why the Mayyas are so fixated on representing themselves as "Lebanese," especially on "Some Other Nationality's Got Talent," when they are doing everything but the type of dancing associated with Lebanon.
3. How many times is this troupe going to do this show? They've already been on "Arabs Got Talent" (which they won in 2019*) and "Britain's Got Talent" (as Champions). Is Simon Cowell getting a kickback from them?
4. And how much is he paying the other judges to "Ooh!” and "Aah!" over a very small set of skills that, while certainly took a lot of practice to do well, wears thin pretty quickly. How many times can you go, "Oh, look, it's an eye!" with gleeful surprise? "I've never seen anything like this...except for every other performance of yours where you did this!"
5. Where is Randa Jarrar to shriek about the intersectionality of cultural misappropriation, orientalist stereotypes, and belly dance when you need her? (* "Blah, blah, imperialism forced Arabs to hate their own cultures. The only way the upper classes could tolerate their indigenous traditions was by othering them or forcing them into pre-established colonialist paradigms...”)
6. Remember when the dance community was bemoaning Sadie and Kaya on AGT? "Non-native audiences are never going to learn to appreciate Tarab and the nuanced artistry of real raqs sharqi if all they ever see is the dialed-up-to-11, Charo 'cuchi-cuchi-cuchi' style!"
7. Ever hear Roxxanne Shelaby say, "Never compare yourself to a lioness! This is a word in Arabic that can be used to describe a woman having raw, sexual energy, but not in a positive, empowering, socially acceptable way."?
8. Should we be grateful that Miles isn't threatening to reboot BDSS with the Mayyas?
And, yes, at least some of them are wearing wigs. In one of the clip intros (sorry, I don't remember which one), one of the dancers reaches up to adjust her hair in a way that a whole head of natural hair does not move.
But, hey, I fell down this rabbit hole today https://escholarship.org/uc/item/40w3m8tx and I think what Maha Afra Haddad is describing as
"Chmalieh" on page 31 is what the National Arab-American Museum teaches as their dabka version, so that's something...
1. Do the Mayyas ever do any actual belly dancing or just lots of these Bollywood arm tableaus with a little Shakira sprinkled in?
2. If someone says "Lebanese dance troupe" to me, I think "dabke," so unless Lebanon changed its national dance from dabke to artistic arm flapping, these are "dancers who happen to be Lebanese," not "Lebanese dancers." I'm confused why the Mayyas are so fixated on representing themselves as "Lebanese," especially on "Some Other Nationality's Got Talent," when they are doing everything but the type of dancing associated with Lebanon.
3. How many times is this troupe going to do this show? They've already been on "Arabs Got Talent" (which they won in 2019*) and "Britain's Got Talent" (as Champions). Is Simon Cowell getting a kickback from them?
4. And how much is he paying the other judges to "Ooh!” and "Aah!" over a very small set of skills that, while certainly took a lot of practice to do well, wears thin pretty quickly. How many times can you go, "Oh, look, it's an eye!" with gleeful surprise? "I've never seen anything like this...except for every other performance of yours where you did this!"
5. Where is Randa Jarrar to shriek about the intersectionality of cultural misappropriation, orientalist stereotypes, and belly dance when you need her? (* "Blah, blah, imperialism forced Arabs to hate their own cultures. The only way the upper classes could tolerate their indigenous traditions was by othering them or forcing them into pre-established colonialist paradigms...”)
6. Remember when the dance community was bemoaning Sadie and Kaya on AGT? "Non-native audiences are never going to learn to appreciate Tarab and the nuanced artistry of real raqs sharqi if all they ever see is the dialed-up-to-11, Charo 'cuchi-cuchi-cuchi' style!"
7. Ever hear Roxxanne Shelaby say, "Never compare yourself to a lioness! This is a word in Arabic that can be used to describe a woman having raw, sexual energy, but not in a positive, empowering, socially acceptable way."?
8. Should we be grateful that Miles isn't threatening to reboot BDSS with the Mayyas?
And, yes, at least some of them are wearing wigs. In one of the clip intros (sorry, I don't remember which one), one of the dancers reaches up to adjust her hair in a way that a whole head of natural hair does not move.
But, hey, I fell down this rabbit hole today https://escholarship.org/uc/item/40w3m8tx and I think what Maha Afra Haddad is describing as
"Chmalieh" on page 31 is what the National Arab-American Museum teaches as their dabka version, so that's something...
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
This is considered Modern Bellydance which doesn't go over with everyone, but I found that for the most part, the western world as a whole cannot absorb more truthful and authentic eastern style dance. But if they can absorb some of this, I think it's a start, and I cannot knock it. Even for myself when I was first learning, I had to use the modern music from BDSS and Petrol Bomb Samora because I wasn't educated enough to appreciate authentic Oum Khaltoum, as my western thinking was truthful enough to admit that I wasn't ever exposed to eastern music, so the transition was gradual.
The hand thing is from Bali *i think, from the thousand hand lotus, and yeah, its not belly dance at all ( they're good at it, but nowhere near as good as the people who actually practice this in their culture, which i believe has been on AGT before) . This is the type of appropriation people in the middle east are cross about (not to bring this up again), you cant just use anything vaguely eastern and call it belly dance. Personally I wouldn't even call it belly dance.... at all. far eastern fusion, that's about it.
1. it isnt even bollywood, its Balinese or Thai, if memory serves, and yeah, its not where near belly dancing
3. i know people who have wanted to be on those reality TV shows, they are forced to sign a contract that makes the producers "own" the act they show on TV, so the idea that Cowell is just using them is possibly what's happening.
6. i DO believe people were harsh on sadie and kaya in the BD world. POSSIBLE bad decisions, but it might have been the beginning for many to understand belly dance. but i don't think this is in the same ball park as belly dance. It Should be labelled where the influence is
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Shanazel
Moderator
Goodness, I had no idea a simple video would lead to such a vehement flapdoodle. I posted the video here not because I believe it represents belly dance, but because the sub-forum is for Dances from or inspired by the Near or Middle East.
Mayya appears to be composed of Arab women with a theatrical background who formed a troupe to pursue creative eclectic dance rather than any form of traditional Middle Eastern dance. The identical costumes, wigs, and face-obscuring veils were likely meant to add to the uniformity of the presentation rather than to indulge in orientalist stereotypes. Accusing Mayya of cultural appropriation is likewise unfair. For heaven's sake, we stood in line and made up what we called peacock dances to entertain ourselves when I was in grade school in south Texas, never having heard of Bali or Thailand. If a bunch of eight year old girls could come up with the concept, one would suspect other folks have as well.
Re: labeling each influence: some people delight in picking apart eclectic dances for what might have been borrowed or flat out stolen from more established dance disciplines. That's fine, but dance is not a box of cereal that requires a list of ingredients on the side. Sometimes it's nice to just enjoy a performance without dissecting it into little pieces and criticizing the dancer for having the nerve to break the rules and combine music heard as a child with the beauty of a gesture made in a contra dance and a ballerina's arabesque. As long as s/he isn't trying to pass off the results as authentic tsiftitelli or fancy shawl dance, do the ingredients really matter?
Mayya appears to be composed of Arab women with a theatrical background who formed a troupe to pursue creative eclectic dance rather than any form of traditional Middle Eastern dance. The identical costumes, wigs, and face-obscuring veils were likely meant to add to the uniformity of the presentation rather than to indulge in orientalist stereotypes. Accusing Mayya of cultural appropriation is likewise unfair. For heaven's sake, we stood in line and made up what we called peacock dances to entertain ourselves when I was in grade school in south Texas, never having heard of Bali or Thailand. If a bunch of eight year old girls could come up with the concept, one would suspect other folks have as well.
Re: labeling each influence: some people delight in picking apart eclectic dances for what might have been borrowed or flat out stolen from more established dance disciplines. That's fine, but dance is not a box of cereal that requires a list of ingredients on the side. Sometimes it's nice to just enjoy a performance without dissecting it into little pieces and criticizing the dancer for having the nerve to break the rules and combine music heard as a child with the beauty of a gesture made in a contra dance and a ballerina's arabesque. As long as s/he isn't trying to pass off the results as authentic tsiftitelli or fancy shawl dance, do the ingredients really matter?
Its not a personal slight anytime someone brings up appropriation, and for all i know, they did not want it to be associated with belly dance, but due to the manipulations of the media it could literally be the medias fault. Also its far, not middle or near, sadly those two vastly different cultures have been lumped together since colonialization. Also, I'm not aiming this at you rather at the labelling of the media.
Yeah, that the distinction that should have been made. this is what im talking about
Kids emulating or being inspired by things they see is not the problem, they're innocent and don't know the adult world (thank heavens). Adults, however, should know better and when you know better, you do better. Again none of this is aimed at you as a person, its at the very adult people who would be labelling this to what it is.
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
I couldn't agree with you more.
Shanazel
Moderator
Kids emulating or being inspired by things they see is not the problem, they're innocent and don't know the adult world (thank heavens). Adults, however, should know better and when you know better, you do better. Again none of this is aimed at you as a person, its at the very adult people who would be labelling this to what it is.
You misunderstood me. We weren't emulating anything we'd seen. We made it up ourselves. This kind of arm show is not something that is unique to one culture, however identified it may be with a particular culture.
The dance was posted under this topic because the dancers are from Lebanon, a Middle Eastern country.
You misunderstood me. We weren't emulating anything we'd seen. We made it up ourselves. This kind of arm show is not something that is unique to one culture, however identified it may be with a particular culture.
The dance was posted under this topic because the dancers are from Lebanon, a Middle Eastern country.
Oh, this isn't a vehement flapdoodle. If we can't have a spirited discussion about what we see among ourselves, what's the point of a forum?
None of my issues are a negative reflection on anybody here, and I don't regret that the thread was started. I miss the old Bhuz days where everybody grabbed a soapbox and shared their opinion (at least until the opinions turned from differing viewpoints to personal attacks...).
Part of my problem here is "What are non-American acts doing on 'America's Got Talent'"?
I get it--these shows are not about finding undiscovered greatness. They're about engaging audiences for ad revenue, and maybe if Simon strikes it big, a pony he can ride around showbiz for a few laps. (He got lucky with Kelly Clarkson and really lucky with One Direction.) Okay, but why bring a group from halfway around the world? "America's Got Talent" isn't the international-winner showcase the Mayyas' appearance on "Britain's Got Talent" was. This was simply taking an opportunity away from a local act (and we all know there was no shortage of Americans who applied, and most likely, plenty of dance troupes at least this good or better). Realistically, it is challenging to monetize a dance troupe, and these women, while they certainly have skills and dedication, don't have the range to go very far. (Do you see a Vegas residency or a world tour that Simon can milk here?) They're just taking a spot away from some American(s) more entitled to their 15 minutes of Andy Warhol Brand Fame on this particular show than they are.
Honestly, I had the same problem with Jennifer Grout when she was on "Arabs Got Talent" in 2013. A fairly average singer warbling out Umm Kalthoum in phonetic Arabic displaced who knows how many better Arab singers? Why? Why, Simon? Is this your idea of a "novelty act"? And why is there so much forced amazement over performances that really aren't that amazing?
Is this the most stunning performance you've ever seen to "Inta omri"? Do you honestly think this is the most wonderful performance Najwa Karam, Ali Jaber, and Ahmed Helmy have ever seen to "Inta omri"?
"Allaaaaaah! Mish ma'a'oul!" They dance with their wrists the way Umm Kalthoum sings with her voice!
(If I'm understanding Nadim correctly, he's describing his choreography at 1:06 as a mixture of Chinese صيني "sini" folklore and Lebanese folklore. Whatever you say, bro...)
Is this version better? it just reminds me of Shakira slamming her hip accents when she danced to it.
The other problem I have is the confusing representation. They made multiple references to being Lebanese and dancing in Lebanon in their bumpers. Heidi called their performance "a little glimpse of [their] culture." When you search on them, Google returns articles and videos slavering over what phenomenal "Lebanese dancing" they are doing.
When the Mayyas were on "Arabs Got Talent," the audience understood they were seeing fusion. Not only were they explicitly told, they had pre-knowledge that an army of women doing a highly synchronized tribute to the many arms of the Hindu goddess Durga (or whatever fusion Nadim frames it as) wasn't belly dance.
But this is America, where audiences struggle to appreciate performances that look too unfamiliar and sound too foreign...where Middle Eastern dance is widely under-appreciated and misunderstood...where Miles concluded he couldn't build a successful BDSS show without "improving" ME music first.
The sort of person watching a talent show on NBC in Bumpkinland who has never seen a real belly dancer or heard real ME music is, to be brutally frank, the sort of person who sees an Arab guy leading a group of skimpily dressed women with little veils on their faces down the street, and wonders whether the guy is sleeping with some or all of them (because belly dancers are hot to trot) or if he is gay or castrated (because, you know, they had to do that so the harem keeper wouldn't sleep with the sultan's wives).
Without more information, I'm afraid this sort of performance just keeps perpetuating the wrong ideas. Additional context wouldn't fix my gripe about non-Americans takng a spot on an allegedly American talent contest, but if the Mayyas didn't look so much and quack so much like what people think a belly-dancing duck looks and quacks like--and if they explicitly said they were doing world fusion instead of leaving it to the audience to figure out that being Lebanese didn't have much to do with their dancing--I would have posted a lot less.
None of my issues are a negative reflection on anybody here, and I don't regret that the thread was started. I miss the old Bhuz days where everybody grabbed a soapbox and shared their opinion (at least until the opinions turned from differing viewpoints to personal attacks...).
Part of my problem here is "What are non-American acts doing on 'America's Got Talent'"?
I get it--these shows are not about finding undiscovered greatness. They're about engaging audiences for ad revenue, and maybe if Simon strikes it big, a pony he can ride around showbiz for a few laps. (He got lucky with Kelly Clarkson and really lucky with One Direction.) Okay, but why bring a group from halfway around the world? "America's Got Talent" isn't the international-winner showcase the Mayyas' appearance on "Britain's Got Talent" was. This was simply taking an opportunity away from a local act (and we all know there was no shortage of Americans who applied, and most likely, plenty of dance troupes at least this good or better). Realistically, it is challenging to monetize a dance troupe, and these women, while they certainly have skills and dedication, don't have the range to go very far. (Do you see a Vegas residency or a world tour that Simon can milk here?) They're just taking a spot away from some American(s) more entitled to their 15 minutes of Andy Warhol Brand Fame on this particular show than they are.
Honestly, I had the same problem with Jennifer Grout when she was on "Arabs Got Talent" in 2013. A fairly average singer warbling out Umm Kalthoum in phonetic Arabic displaced who knows how many better Arab singers? Why? Why, Simon? Is this your idea of a "novelty act"? And why is there so much forced amazement over performances that really aren't that amazing?
Is this the most stunning performance you've ever seen to "Inta omri"? Do you honestly think this is the most wonderful performance Najwa Karam, Ali Jaber, and Ahmed Helmy have ever seen to "Inta omri"?
"Allaaaaaah! Mish ma'a'oul!" They dance with their wrists the way Umm Kalthoum sings with her voice!
(If I'm understanding Nadim correctly, he's describing his choreography at 1:06 as a mixture of Chinese صيني "sini" folklore and Lebanese folklore. Whatever you say, bro...)
Is this version better? it just reminds me of Shakira slamming her hip accents when she danced to it.
The other problem I have is the confusing representation. They made multiple references to being Lebanese and dancing in Lebanon in their bumpers. Heidi called their performance "a little glimpse of [their] culture." When you search on them, Google returns articles and videos slavering over what phenomenal "Lebanese dancing" they are doing.
When the Mayyas were on "Arabs Got Talent," the audience understood they were seeing fusion. Not only were they explicitly told, they had pre-knowledge that an army of women doing a highly synchronized tribute to the many arms of the Hindu goddess Durga (or whatever fusion Nadim frames it as) wasn't belly dance.
But this is America, where audiences struggle to appreciate performances that look too unfamiliar and sound too foreign...where Middle Eastern dance is widely under-appreciated and misunderstood...where Miles concluded he couldn't build a successful BDSS show without "improving" ME music first.
The sort of person watching a talent show on NBC in Bumpkinland who has never seen a real belly dancer or heard real ME music is, to be brutally frank, the sort of person who sees an Arab guy leading a group of skimpily dressed women with little veils on their faces down the street, and wonders whether the guy is sleeping with some or all of them (because belly dancers are hot to trot) or if he is gay or castrated (because, you know, they had to do that so the harem keeper wouldn't sleep with the sultan's wives).
Without more information, I'm afraid this sort of performance just keeps perpetuating the wrong ideas. Additional context wouldn't fix my gripe about non-Americans takng a spot on an allegedly American talent contest, but if the Mayyas didn't look so much and quack so much like what people think a belly-dancing duck looks and quacks like--and if they explicitly said they were doing world fusion instead of leaving it to the audience to figure out that being Lebanese didn't have much to do with their dancing--I would have posted a lot less.
Shanazel
Moderator
Oh, this isn't a vehement flapdoodle. If we can't have a spirited discussion about what we see among ourselves, what's the point of a forum?
I adore vehement flapdoodles, which are far more civil and interesting than pitched battles with opinionated ranting. We just have them so rarely anymore and I was surprised to have touched one off.
I don't have a television, haven't had one in almost fifty years, so have only seen these talent programs on sites like YouTube. I generally watch the act and move on before the judges get started. I know who Simon is, but don't know why he's famous enough to be on the panel. If someone would like to elucidate, I'd appreciate it.
I adore vehement flapdoodles, which are far more civil and interesting than pitched battles with opinionated ranting. We just have them so rarely anymore and I was surprised to have touched one off.
I don't have a television, haven't had one in almost fifty years, so have only seen these talent programs on sites like YouTube. I generally watch the act and move on before the judges get started. I know who Simon is, but don't know why he's famous enough to be on the panel. If someone would like to elucidate, I'd appreciate it.
ElizabethArena
New member
I watched the introduction twice and never once did they say they were going to dance in their native style, nor that they were going to belly dance. They just said that they formed as a dance troupe so that they could feel safe dancing in their country where it is frowned upon.
Are we saying that a woman from Lebanon should only dance the debkeh in or outside of Lebanon? That would be awfully boring if you ask me.
I think that’s an awfully harsh view of someone in “Bumpkinland’. Perhaps someone in middle America might think that, but it’s not like they haven’t seen dance troupes male or female on these shows before. If anything the Mayyas introduction might make them have sympathy towards them, and thereby educate themselves on the matter.
I agree on the non-American acts on what is supposedly a show to find talent in the US. On the other hand it’s good for US audiences to see some international talent.
Simon Cowell started Britain’s Got Talent which then spawned all the others -so that’s why he’s on the AGT panel. Just like Len and Bruno founded Strictly Come Dancing which became Dancing with the Stars in the US (and in other countries globally).
Are we saying that a woman from Lebanon should only dance the debkeh in or outside of Lebanon? That would be awfully boring if you ask me.
I think that’s an awfully harsh view of someone in “Bumpkinland’. Perhaps someone in middle America might think that, but it’s not like they haven’t seen dance troupes male or female on these shows before. If anything the Mayyas introduction might make them have sympathy towards them, and thereby educate themselves on the matter.
I agree on the non-American acts on what is supposedly a show to find talent in the US. On the other hand it’s good for US audiences to see some international talent.
Simon Cowell started Britain’s Got Talent which then spawned all the others -so that’s why he’s on the AGT panel. Just like Len and Bruno founded Strictly Come Dancing which became Dancing with the Stars in the US (and in other countries globally).