Musicians Influence Dancers

[Duvet]

How big an influence have musicians been in the history of bellydance? You can’t dance without music, so I guess the musicians are central historically. But were musicians frequently the teachers of the dance?

I’ve read two articles recently about dancing in the 1970s nightclubs of London, and how dancers were occasionally guided by the musicians in what to do. I’m assuming that while dancers might have been hired nightly, and changed frequently, musicians would have been hired long term and been playing every night. Therefore, for dancers in the West trying to learn bellydance, the musicians might have had quite a large influence on what they were presenting (at a time when dance teachers were rare), and were more likely to be engaged in conversation by interested members of the general public. I’m sure dancers also taught each other, but there may have been some professional rivalry between performers that would be lacking from a musician. Today, Hossam Ramzy has his own school, and frequently interjects on his wife’s workshops, so is he just the lastest in a long line of dance teaching musicians?
And how big an influence did/do Arabic musicians have on dancers in the Middle East?

Does anyone have any comment, experiences or thoughts on this?

 

[khanjar]

I think music taught dance, sure way back people pranced about, children do it just for the joy of movement, so perhaps there the origins, but perhaps that prancing about started to make more sense when music was applied, and with music comes control, as in controlled movement which is what a dance is.

But from my own perspective, boogying in my flat to any music, whatever comes up on the random play ( and there is 220 hours of it, and it can be anything from classical music, to death metal and Irish folk to Arabic), is the music is a timing pulse and a movement suggester. That being one knows a core movement, it can be applied to almost any music and yes, I do belly dance, being the only core movement I know to anything that comes up on the random play.

So in my perspective musicians direct dancers through music, but I have seen dancers direct musicians, in what I call the 'duelling banjo' scenario, one leads the other follows, the follower leads and the leader follows, this to me is an equality, where dance has matured to meet the music, but I suspect music will always dominate, as one does not have to dance to enjoy music.

As to how suggestive is the music, well what the music suggests might be down to culture as well as feeling, and cultures where natural movement has been modified through fashion, it is likely those cultures will not automatically feel the correct movement through the music.

Deportment instruction and such of the past.

 

[Duvet]

The best drum solos are when you can see the dancer and the drummer playing off each other, working together and enjoying each other's skill. I do get the impression however that the drummer tends to think they are in charge, while dancers seem to get annoyed at drummers who take over far more frequently than do drummers over dancers who don't keep to their beat. But drummers are frequently more appreciative to a dancer who doesn't just view them as a background noise, and like the interaction and acknowledgement of each other.

I went to an African dance class where the (African male) drummer definately did not like taking instruction from the (English female) tutor. Then again he gave the impression that the whole class were just a money-cow for his own personality, and we were deluded to think we could be any good at something that came from his culture. I never did a class of his again.

Regarding musicians influencing the dance. When we come to cross cultural influences and communication, who decided to bring in Western instruments (accordions, violins, etc), and who communicated to the tourists asking questions about the dance, and who took precedence over organising the program of performances - the musicians or the dancers?

If you hire musicians with a limited repertoire, and some wickedly good dancers, the dancers can only do what the musicians can play, so what people see at a performance (prior to recorded music), must have been limited to some extent to the musicians abilities. (An analogy would be the dance halls of the British 1950s - you can't dance tango if the band can only play the waltz, unless you are really good).

 

[Tarik Sultan]

How big an influence have musicians been in the history of bellydance? You can’t dance without music, so I guess the musicians are central historically. But were musicians frequently the teachers of the dance?

I’ve read two articles recently about dancing in the 1970s nightclubs of London, and how dancers were occasionally guided by the musicians in what to do. I’m assuming that while dancers might have been hired nightly, and changed frequently, musicians would have been hired long term and been playing every night. Therefore, for dancers in the West trying to learn bellydance, the musicians might have had quite a large influence on what they were presenting (at a time when dance teachers were rare), and were more likely to be engaged in conversation by interested members of the general public. I’m sure dancers also taught each other, but there may have been some professional rivalry between performers that would be lacking from a musician. Today, Hossam Ramzy has his own school, and frequently interjects on his wife’s workshops, so is he just the lastest in a long line of dance teaching musicians?
And how big an influence did/do Arabic musicians have on dancers in the Middle East?

Does anyone have any comment, experiences or thoughts on this?

Context is everything. Never forget that this dance is primarily a social phenominon. All we did was took what is done at home and polish it up for the stage. Now in London, what you had was a situation where non westerners were performing a dance that was not their own and quite often had little knowledge about it. Therefore, what these guys did was step in and try to help because they were the only ones wit the in culture knowledge that could give them pointers on how to do it in a more culturally authentic way, especilly how to hear the music and how to respond to it.

 

[Duvet]

Context is everything. Never forget that this dance is primarily a social phenominon. All we did was took what is done at home and polish it up for the stage. Now in London, what you had was a situation where non westerners were performing a dance that was not their own and quite often had little knowledge about it. Therefore, what these guys did was step in and try to help because they were the only ones wit the in culture knowledge that could give them pointers on how to do it in a more culturally authentic way, especilly how to hear the music and how to respond to it.

Absolutely. People learnt from whichever source was nearest, or the source most open to giving advise. But how much has that influence been acknowledged, or still carries on? Not just from 1970s London, but when the dance first appeared to the general public in Europe and America in the late 19th-early 20th Centuries?

And even as a social dance, you need musicians who can not only play, but can play well and play together. Have you tried dancing to a drummer who can't keep a beat? Is that why finger cymbals were so ubiquitous to dancing - you don't then have to rely on seperate musicians, or you can play over bad music (and, of course, compliment good music too)?

 

[Afrit]

I’ve read two articles recently about dancing in the 1970s nightclubs of London, and how dancers were occasionally guided by the musicians in what to do. I’m assuming that while dancers might have been hired nightly, and changed frequently, musicians would have been hired long term and been playing every night. Therefore, for dancers in the West trying to learn bellydance, the musicians might have had quite a large influence on what they were presenting (at a time when dance teachers were rare), and were more likely to be engaged in conversation by interested members of the general public. I’m sure dancers also taught each other, but there may have been some professional rivalry between performers that would be lacking from a musician. Today, Hossam Ramzy has his own school, and frequently interjects on his wife’s workshops, so is he just the lastest in a long line of dance teaching musicians?

It is possible that in the UK "while dancers might have been hired nightly, and changed frequently, musicians would have been hired long term and been playing every night" I believe the opposite was the case in the US. Dancers performed as much as 6 nights a week. Musicians came and went according to other work commitments (being mostly male). However, musicians tended to be from the culture. Dancers were often westerners so need to learn either from other dancers or amateurs from the culture or musicians. I can imagine musicians telling a dancer how to hear the music but they would need to see someone dancing. Now, that could be a male musician - but that isn't the story Morocco tells in her book (Ask Aunt Rocky). At that time dancers were hard to get - so less competition for jobs too.

Yeah, Hossam. 'Nuff said.

 

[Aniseteph]

I can imagine musicians telling a dancer how to hear the music but they would need to see someone dancing. Now, that could be a male musician - but that isn't the story Morocco tells in her book (Ask Aunt Rocky). At that time dancers were hard to get - so less competition for jobs too.

Agreed. Anyone familiar with what it looks like done properly can say you're doing it all wrong, but it takes someone who can dance to show you - another dancer, a musician, the restaurant owner, the cook... you'd do the best with the resources you had at the time I guess.