Oriental Dance started in Baghdad???

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad, etc.

Dear Taheya,

I think that while belly dance evolved from folkdance, as practicaly all dances do, it is in itself not a folkdance. It is a new form of dance unto itself. A western example would be tap dance, which did come from folkloric roots but turned into its own art form when an agrarian society moved into the cities of America and started their own forms of entertainment, with some elements of what they had known before. Nothing under the sun is ever new as such, but new things do develop from old ones. Belly dance is a new dance of a modern society.


The problem with looking at pyramid art and saying it is belly dance is three- fold. First, the pyramid art of nearly all times was pretty one dimensional if we are talking the painting. It is not possible to see what was happening really. The dancers are caught in a moment in time. Secondly, we do not know what came before or after any particular pose or gesture. Third, you can see some of the same types of hand gestures and even movements in such dances as Balinese, Hindi pure dance, hula, etc. and for the most part, in authentic ethnic belly dance, especially Egyptian and Lebanese, you do not see that much very stylized hand and arm movement. Arms and hands are used more as frames for movement than in any other way. (You do see a little more of it in Turkish belly dance.) I am not trying to be hard to get along with, here. I am just trying to point out reasons why it is not academically sound to say that ancient Egyptians had belly dance as an entertainment.

Re the dancers at the Chicago World Exposition in 1893. Carlton wrote that the performers were "Egyptian -Style Ghawazi, Algerian OUled Nail and handkercheif dancers, and Turkish Cengi" (Looking for Little Egypt, p. XI.) There were also some cheap imitation French dancers on the Midway as well. Re the "Golden Era" dancers: The movement families and the essence of the dance, as well as the approach to the music and the basic message remain the same. All dances evolve, but the Egyptian belly dancer retains that "belly dancer" feeling. Watch Tahia Carioca and Randa back to back and you can see that they both have it! The dance is essentially the same now as it has always been.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

How old is Raks & Turkish style

Hi folks:

I just took a look at the thread again. as usual, part of the problem is semantics. The term belly dance is so problematic because it means different things to different people.

For many people, any dance from the Middle east and North Africa that uses hip movements is "belly Dance". They are not. They are very distinct dances which may or may not share certain features, but are not interchangable.

I think that for A'isha, when she says belly dance, what she in fact means is Raks sharki, which is a modern performance art which is based on the movements of various folk dances, chiefly, Raks shabbi, or Baladi, which is the dance of the ordinary people. Its because it is a stage dance and the fact that as such that particular style is not done by the ordinary people, that she says its not folk dance. In that respect she is right, however, because it is based on the older traditions, there are many of the movements that are done by the ordinary people, however, the essence and intent is different. In essence Raks sharki is different from Baladi. The showmanship, presentation and dramatic edge are not a part of the folk dances, therefore, when she says it didn't exist more than 100 yrs ago she is also correct.

Some people on the other hand see less of a distinction between the folk dance and the stage version because there is so much similarity between the movement vocabulary. They see one as being the old version and Raks sharki as being the younger version of the same dance and from that perspective they are right. What both points of view agree on is that Raks sharki IS different in form and essence. The why and what it means is where lies the disagreement.

Egyptian Raks sharki was developed in the early 19th century in Cairo. Badia Masabni was very instrumental in developing it. The intent was in fact to create somethnig that was new and very different from the dance of the local people.

From what I have gleaned from the writings of Metin And, a similar process happened in Turkey. At the turn of the century, the performances of the Chengis, like the kochecks, began to die out in popularity. Remember, that the women un like the Ghawazee in Egypt, never performed in front of male audiences, but in private only for the women. When the Ottoman Empire fell apart, Turkish society accelerated the process of self imposed westernization. In the area of Pera and Taksim in Istanbul, music hall began to be created. This was the first time that women began to perform in public. My educated guess, is that Turkish raks is based on the local Turkish solo improvisational dance, which borrowed heavily from the arab Raks Baladi. No doubt, sice Cairo was the center of entertainment and arts in the area, they were watching and immitating to a degree what they saw happening. This is evident from the fact they also adopted the two piece costume.

 

[taheya]

That is very interesting, where can i read about badia masabni? Also the other person you mentioned tarik, Metin? Aisha i do not believe you when you say you are not trying to be difficult...!!! Only joking it is all good! I just feel we cannot firmly distinguish between bellydance and the folk dance due to its similarities.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad, etc.

Dear Tarik,
Yes, I do call Raqs Sharghi "belly dance" as it has been known to westerners for ever. When I speak to other dancers or Arabs, I often refer to it as Raqs Sharghi, but to audiences, it is known as "belly dance". That is simply the non-literal English translation. Almost every dancer I know who refutes this still uses "belly dance" in their advertisement so that the general public will know what they are talking
about when they use the Arabic and Turkish terms.
Yes, the essence of Raqs Sharghi is different from the essence of any of the folkloric dances and your explanation of why is very good! Each dance has its own specific feeling and meaning and belly dance is a different dance from those danced by the people.
Thank you for the info on Turkish belly dance, or Oreintal Tanza.

Dear Taheya,
I hope that Tarik's info has made my own explanations more clear, since he is in essence, saying the same thing as me but in different words. His explanation of why belly dance is not a folk dance is really clear and right-on. He also states that the dance was developed in the early 19th century, but I think he means the late 19th century, since Masabni would have nearly 100 years old by the time the dance was getting its first notoriety if he meant the other!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[taheya]

Ok no bright lights, drama and no 'need to entertain others' but the social dance is very similar to belly dance. Surely the main difference is that people dance for enjoyment rather than to entertain others. However, If you set aside the 'showmanship' of bellydance, surely it is evident that the inner spirit which drives the dance is inseparable to social dancing that is done in EGypt for instance by people from a young age.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad

Dear Taheya,
While the dances share some movement concepts, I would say that they are not in essence the same. The spirit which drives the social dance is very different in nature from Raqs Sharghi ( belly dance), takes way less training and time and is USUALLY not anywhere near as technical or emotionally developed. I have danced with Arab girls who are doing social dance for the last 30 years or so and it is simply not the same. You usuallu do not see them even dancing to anything more complex than a good piece of beledi or Shaabi music. They would no way know what to do with, say, a piece like Meshall, or Princess of Cairo.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

To touch on the points raised by Aisha and Taheya. Taheya is right in that because so much of the movement vocabulary is the same there are moments when there is overlap. This can bee seen when there is audience participation. At that point, the dancer reverts back to th basic baladi foundation, nothing fancy or overly commplicated and generally a very fixed used of space.

Sharki differs in that there is a much more liberal use of floor space. The energy is also different, the focus of the dancer's attention is projected outward to the entire room, wghere as baladi it is not projected outward, but kept inward allowing your company to watch, or shared between the confines of your social group. If you look at my youtube clip of the guy dancing on the boat you'll see what I mean.

An interesting comment was made to me by a guy in an Egyptian cafe arounf=d the corner from me. He complained that the dancers only use classical orchestrated music that you can only dance to if you are a professional, he found it frustrating as he wanted to get up and dance too.
BEcause the foundation of Sharki is baladi, we can modify ourselves to dance on the social level. The average person on the other hand can not adapt to dancing on the professional level without training.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Taheya,... He also states that the dance was developed in the early 19th century, but I think he means the late 19th century, since Masabni would have nearly 100 years old by the time the dance was getting its first notoriety if he meant the other!
Regards,
A'isha

:think: ......Oh Crap! I meant eary 1900s!

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

BEcause the foundation of Sharki is baladi, we can modify ourselves to dance on the social level. The average person on the other hand can not adapt to dancing on the professional level without training.

That's very right It is a similar relation between Greek Tsifteteli and Raqs Sharqi. Many Greeks think that they can perfectly belly dance, because they can dance Tsifteteli. But they've never heard any classical Arabian music. Of course they wouldn't ever manage to dance on a piece like "Mashaal" or "Princess of Cairo". I give workshops in Greece once a while and the first thing I do, is let the participants dance on a classical Arabian song, in order to see what the level of the class is and what level of techniques I'm going to teach. It is really funny to see some girls who call themselves "professional dancers", just because they dance for money in some bouzoukia clubs, being totally lost and not knowing what to dance on that music:lol:
On the other hand it is very easy for an experienced Sharqi dancer to dance on any Greek Tsifteteli song (o.k. the older Tsifteteli songs are not so easy to dance for non Greeks, because the rhythm is not very obvious, but it doesn't take long to understand how to dance on them).

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad

Dear Tarik,
It is more than just not being able to adapt to the professional level. In MOST cases, there are things that happen within the dance form that have nothing to do with Beledi or Shaabi, or any of rhe other folkloric dances. The complexity of the emotional content changes drastically and there are also movement variations and combinations and layers that do not have anything to do with social dance. There is the interplay of both internalized and externalized feeling and emotion. There is the aspect of not being a social dance in that it is a solo perfromance done in large part FOR other rather than WITH them, completely changing the psychology. There is the strictly personal response of the soloist to the situation, the music the culture, etc. In fact, I would say that pretty much the only thing that Beledi, Shaabi and Raqs Sharghi have in common is a few movements from the same movement families. There is the occasional social dancer who can bring some of this to the dance floor, but certainly not all of it, because the professional has the floor to her/himself in a way that has completely different meaning than social dance.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Tarik,
It is more than just not being able to adapt to the professional level. In MOST cases, there are things that happen within the dance form that have nothing to do with Beledi or Shaabi, or any of rhe other folkloric dances. The complexity of the emotional content changes drastically and there are also movement variations and combinations and layers that do not have anything to do with social dance. There is the interplay of both internalized and externalized feeling and emotion. There is the aspect of not being a social dance in that it is a solo perfromance done in large part FOR other rather than WITH them, completely changing the psychology. There is the strictly personal response of the soloist to the situation, the music the culture, etc. In fact, I would say that pretty much the only thing that Beledi, Shaabi and Raqs Sharghi have in common is a few movements from the same movement families. There is the occasional social dancer who can bring some of this to the dance floor, but certainly not all of it, because the professional has the floor to her/himself in a way that has completely different meaning than social dance.
Regards,
A'isha

This is just a more detailed explanation of what I was toughing on. There is a much different dynamic at play in Sharki than there is in Shabbi or Baladi.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad, etc.

Dear Tarik,
I was not sure, since it seemed you were saying that Taheya was right in saying they were essentially the same thing....??? I may have misunderstood.
Basically I think the similarity in movement is throwing a curve for some people. Somehow, when the dance reaches the western mind it sometimes seems to turn into a series of movements instead of a wholistic dance with its its own cultural place and meaning and even its own time. Then, everything that is even vaguely related in movement concept becomes "belly dance". It's like saying that jazz and ballet must be the same thing since they incorporate some of the same movement families. they have some movement inc ommor but are not the same dance.
I see the problem as one of trying to broaden the dance concept to include more than thinking in terms of movement. We have to work to understand the dance as having its own life force outside that of the folkloric realm, since it is very much a separate dance.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[taheya]

I do not mean to harp on about this but i do not entirely agree with you aisha. Of course a dance which is a performance is going to be different in essence to a dance which is done purely for enjoyment or social activity. The point of a performance is to entertain an audience, so sure this makes bellydance different from folk dance. Dramatics are added etc to add to the entertainment factor.
However, what makes an egyptian dancer notably egyptian? I think it is the essence which is a mixture of cultural and social influences, maybe the fact that they are born in to that culture, music and dance that it becomes second nature.
I am not talking about movements here im talking about the feeling and instinct. Of course folk dancing is not the same as bellydance, but it grew from it and still has it inherent in its soul.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad

Dear Taheya,
Would you say then, Beledi,all of the different dances of the Ghawazi, Sudani, Shaabi, Raqs Sharghi, the staged Reda stuff, etc. are all the same in essence? I think not. Though they are all Egyptian dances, they all have their particular flavors and feelings and meanings and even music. The music is a key element in all of these different dances and the music is very different from dance to another. They all have their own essence just like there is a difference between tap dance and New York Jazz, though they are both American.
Taheya, if it really seems to you that they are all the same dance at heart, then I am not sure that I will be able to impart the differences to you.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[taheya]

I do not think these dances are the same, neither do i think that bellydance is the same as folk dance. My point was that bellydance has its roots in folk dance. :wall:

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad

Dear Taheya,
There we can agree. Belly dance does have its roots in folkloric dance, partly.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Baghdad etc.

Hi Everyone, I re-read the original post discussing Amani's assertion. Aside from all the subsequent posts, there is something not quite right with Amani's statement. Let's pull back for a moment and think about how historical information is discovered and processed.
As dancers, we often lack the educational discipline to review info, develop working hypotheses and try to prove the hypotheses to be fact or fiction. Basically the scientific process. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to apply this principle, anthropologists, sociologists etc use this method. Top Oriental dancers do not, this why they make up stuff.
In the original post, it is suggested that the "dance moved west to Egypt". How? Did "dance" pack up camel and decide to move to greener pastures?. No. Instead of looking at dance as a separate entity unto itself, maybe we should look at the political, sociological and economic impact on the population at the time. It's these indicators that will give us a geater understanding on how something as esoteric moved from one region to the next.Ask any paleo-anthroplogist.
No doubt, our ancestors left behind clues on their daily lives, pictographs,poems etc. But can we look at these clues from an unbiased eye?
If Amani did indeed make this statement, is she unbiased? Are we unbiased?
I'm as curious as the next person about the origins of this dance, although I may have been born at night IT wasn't last night! This is why I give props to people like Morrocco and Aisha Ali who became dance ethnologists from the love of the dance. They have documented in writing and through audio/videotape representation the current importance of dance without focusing on a part of history shrouded in mystery.
Yasmine

 

[Aisha Azar]

Baghdad

Dear Yasmine,
Interesting you should mention paleoanthropology. My original goal in life was to be a paleoanthropologist and I have taken some anthropology, sociology and history, religion and other related classes. That is why I look at the dance in the way that I do when we discuss its history, (and why I am big on citing sources, too, probably!) Even among those who used to be "sure" of the meaning of those little "goddess" statues, there is now a change in attitude and discussion about not putting meaning into them since they are really not sure what they were.
In my library here at home, I intersperse my dance literature with books in all of those other subjects ( as well as business books). In reading in all these subjects, I can have a well rounded view of the situation surrounding dance, since it does grow out of cultural and sub-cultural environments. Your points are very good!
Regards,
A'isha