Pirate belly dance -- I didn't think it was real...

[TribalDancer]

I was just thinking the same thing but with Kleenex and Band-Aid--both are brand names, which are a specific product by a specific company, but have become meta-terms for the product itself separate from the company.

 

[Shanazel]

I was a consultant for an exhibit firm many many years ago. The owner told me that those kinds of terms are known in the business as "frigidaires."

 

[karena]

That's what the French call fridges, je pense...:think:

 

[Aniseteph]

Hoovers.

(doesn't contribute to the thread but couldn't resist the word once I thought of it. Carry on....)

 

[Aisha Azar]

dance

Dear Kharis,

I have absolutely no personal beef about the term bellydance. None at all. My argument is that any fusion, which incorporates ME dance moves, is naturally and automatically placed under this term as naturally as it has been placed there by those who also believe a bellydancer prances round half naked with a jewel in her navel. Unfortunate as you may think it is, nothing will change this. So, surely in this 'fusion' climate, it makes sense to educate people by at least placing a clarification prefix before 'bellydance' to this end.

I have not found that peple automatically put anything that shares a few movements with belly dance in that category. the Tribal fusion dancers around here do not, for the most part. Actually it IS changing. Now people question, they insist that people clarify what they are doing much more than when I first started dancing, back in the day when it was all just "belly dance'. People, even more dancers, recognize that belly dance is an ethnic dance that has definite roots.

I cannot help thinking that some long standing dancers and experts in this field had the foresight to see what was coming in this respect and hence their dislike of the term 'bellydance' for MED.

I am one of those long standing dancers who has no issue with the term belly dance. morocco does and it is one area where we disagree. I do not find it disrespectful ,especially in light of the dance's place in native societies, while she does. Yet, we have a very good relationship.

But the term, as we both agree, is western and has also had a bad press attached to it.

The term is not used for western dance, though it is a western term, just like we say French fries here instead of Pomme Frit. they mean the same thing. As for bad press, my theory is that westerners have spent a lot of time trying to clean up a dance that is considered beneath the dignity of nice girls. I am way over that one and do not try to "clean up" the dance's image. It is what it is and while I consider it to be an art form, I also never argue with anyone from native countries about their views, either. The dance is their dance and it is what they say it is.

The changes that then made it into the form most commonly associated with that term were western changes.

I disagree. The dance had one western element. That was a few balletic movements and some techniques for covering space. Even these were tweaked through that Egyptian ( or Turkish or Lebanese) cutural filter and were recognizably NOT western after that.

So the cultural aspects were then diluted and weakened.

No, they were not and still are not. That is the reason we can see very clearly, once we learn about the dance, why one dancer is Turkish, another Lebanese and another Egyptian. It is because those styles retain every ounce of cultural integrity regardless of what bows and whistles are included, regardless of anything, because the hearts and souls of the native dancers are so very enmeshed in the cuultures that it is not something that can be separated out.

So, if you are so concerned about keeping MED pure, why would it make sense to continue to call it bellydance. I never said the dance was attached to Hollywood. But like it or not, cinema and western influences played it's part in the evolution of the dance so this cannot be dismissed either.

As I have already explained, that is the nonliteral English name for the Middle Eastern/ North African dance form. That is why. I am not the one who decided this. It is how it is put there in the western world.

I so agree. But as with all history, there can be things which pop up to alter our perspectives and new writings with new so called 'evidence'. No doubt one day some kind of evidence will come to light about who did the very first hip drops. What irony if it turned out to be some Steam Punk Aliens...
.

I think I said in our conversation somewhere that one of the more western attitudes about dance is that it is all about the movement. Even if the first person ever to do a hip drop is from Sweden or Mars, it will not change the basic nature of belly dance one iota, because there is so much more that goes into making a dance what it is besides movement.

I agree. I think it should retain it's roots, and I too would not like to see it disappear. But I think this is slim, don't you? Realistically.

I disagree.

You calling fusion as you do, undermining it and making those who perhaps feel they work hard on their dance to keep it, as they see it, still in line with MED influences and they still wish to call it bellydance fusion, well, frankly it's insulting.

Who says I am undermining fusion? I am not. I have great respect for good fusion artists. I hire them, in fact and am currently working with three of them. All of them readily admit that what they are creating is so far from anything Middle Eastern that there is np way it is belly dance. Funny, they do not feel insulted by my stance at all, and agree with it.

How did I know you were going to spout all this....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Spouting off is when people make statements that are incorrect about things they know nothing about. I backed up my point with two very readily proved statements. I would not call that "spouting off".
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

In the southern US, all soft drinks are cokes. Example: "Ya'll wanna coke?" "Surely." "What kind?" "Dr. Pepper."

For many of us, belly dance is the same kind of term. "You a belly dancer?" "Yep." "What kind?" "AmCab. But my best friend does Lebanese."

Dear Shanazel,

The average American has no idea what in heck the words "Am Cab" even means, and they thinkl belly dance means the dancer is doing something from the exotic land far away, not from California.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

I was just thinking the same thing but with Kleenex and Band-Aid--both are brand names, which are a specific product by a specific company, but have become meta-terms for the product itself separate from the company.

Dear Sharon,
While this is true of those particular products, outside of some dzncers, the word belly dance has not become a ubiquitous term for the dances that are being done in its name. There are three restaurants who have dancers here in Spokane. They are all owned by people of ethnic persuasion. Two Arabs and a Hindi guy, who just moved here from San Diego and was in Seattle before that. All of them have made it clear that they do not consider Tribal or fusion to be belly dance and what belly dancers, "not that other kind".
I am stating a truth here, not trying to be obnoxious. You know that I have a lot of respect for you and I hope you will take this in the spirit it is offered.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[TribalDancer]

I am not at all offended by the facts you stated. I could also list various restaurants I have visited with owners of Middle Eastern descent who find tribal to be just another version of bellydace, and some like it very much. I have been stopped when I got off stage many times by people from "over there", complimenting us and telling us that our dance was "just like back home" to them. I have danced at parties and had people from "over there" stop me and ask me where I learned "their dance". So it is still largely a matter of opinion, no matter what your cultural background.

 

[Aisha Azar]

!

I am not at all offended by the facts you stated. I could also list various restaurants I have visited with owners of Middle Eastern descent who find tribal to be just another version of bellydace, and some like it very much. I have been stopped when I got off stage many times by people from "over there", complimenting us and telling us that our dance was "just like back home" to them. I have danced at parties and had people from "over there" stop me and ask me where I learned "their dance". So it is still largely a matter of opinion, no matter what your cultural background.

Dear Sharon,
Nothing is ever 100% true!! I have heard a couple of tribal dancers say they have had your experience, but not very many. I can't even get them work here at all and they rarely worked in Seattle years ago when I was in the clubs there. And when I have sat with Arabs during shows, they do not know what they are seeing, do not think its belly dance and often are rather rude about it. I have one friend who will never return to Med Fest, which I think is a shame. I just can't get her to appreciate Tribal dance. Her attitude, unfortunately, is typical for the most part, from what I have seen. In this town, three out of three native owned restaurants do not want it, and the 4th has only had dancers occasionally and always asks for "the real belly dancers". This guy worked with Ben Alawi, who owned (and still might own) Marakesh in Seattle and in Portland. He wanted only "real belly dancers" , too. ( Their words, not mine.) Same with when I danced at George's and a couple of the other more short lived clubs in Seattle. I did not work much in Portland, so I am not sure what it was like there. Have you worked there much? What places are you talking about? I wonder if I danced at any them or if it was after I stopped doing club/ restaurant work, because in all honestly, I have seen very native few club owners who want tribal dance. They usually want a young, slinky girl in a skimpy shiftishi! Of course I have been out of the club scene for about 10 years now.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[TribalDancer]

Interesting you invoked the owner of Marrakesh because Gypsy Caravan worked at Marrakech in Portland for years, and we have performed at the Seattle one, as have other tribal dancers in Seattle. So maybe he is saying he prefers another style over tribal, but he certainly has hired his fair share of tribal bellydancers. Then again, we were all ATS based dancers, not tribal fusion. So maybe it depends on the definition of tribal, eh?

I recently wrote in my LiveJournal about the proliferation of fusion, and how so many bellydance shows are mostly fusion any more, and very little else. I likened it to being fed nothing but dessert. Most folks like dessert, but it is supposed to be a swee cap at the end of a hearty meal. So many performances these days skip the meat n' potatoes and go right to dessert, and audiences are getting downright nauseous trying to take it in, and some just walk away from the table. Sounds like that is what your friend has done...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, Portland

Dear Sharon,

Interesting you invoked the owner of Marrakesh because Gypsy Caravan worked at Marrakech in Portland for years, and we have performed at the Seattle one, as have other tribal dancers in Seattle. So maybe he is saying he prefers another style over tribal, but he certainly has hired his fair share of tribal bellydancers.

I was never in Ben's place in Portland, though Hallah Moustafa and I made the hangings for that one. (She also did the one Seattle years ago.) I danced in his Seattle restaurant when MB was there, and here occasionally, though I was working in a different restaurant here in town as the house dancer. There were no tribal dancers performing there in his Seattle place at the time. Usually it was either Victoria or Rishi, if memory serves and for a short while another dancer who's name escapes me. I used to hang out in the Portland clubs when I would go down there to study when I was a baby dancer. Badawia, Ruby Sowder, Carol Love and those guys were at Grecian Gardens and Athens West.

Then again, we were all ATS based dancers, not tribal fusion. So maybe it depends on the definition of tribal, eh?

I am pretty sure your definition is different from a lot of what is going on out there these days, if memory serves!!

I recently wrote in my LiveJournal about the proliferation of fusion, and how so many bellydance shows are mostly fusion any more, and very little else.

In other words, they are not belly dance shows!! That poor term is slung around like camel spit .

I likened it to being fed nothing but dessert. Most folks like dessert, but it is supposed to be a swee cap at the end of a hearty meal. So many performances these days skip the meat n' potatoes and go right to dessert, and audiences are getting downright nauseous trying to take it in,

I know I do.

and some just walk away from the table. Sounds like that is what your friend has done...

Leila thought she saw only two belly dancers all week-end. She was so disgusted at what is being passed off as belly dance. She has seen all the greats from Lebanon and Egypt as her family always traveled extensively and did not just stay at home in Riyadh. She once asked me if Americans just did any old thing and thought they were belly dancing and I had to reply that it seems like it to me sometimes, too. I would say that something like 98% of all the Arabs I have ever met feel that way. A couple of them don't care as long as they think the dancer might go home with them!! LOL!!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[TribalDancer]

LOL Aisha!

At a show in Seattle last fall there was a group up on stage doing some kind of Asian fusion thing, with the thai fingers and costuming with a lot of oriental fabrics and jewelry, as well as pale faces and the tiny red bow lips. I was sitting at the back, and a woman walked up and asked me what was going on. I said it was a bellydance performance. She said, "So they just do anything and call it bellydance?!" She sounded genuinely confused, and I had to try hard to keep from laughing... Little did she know how right she was...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

LOL Aisha!

At a show in Seattle last fall there was a group up on stage doing some kind of Asian fusion thing, with the thai fingers and costuming with a lot of oriental fabrics and jewelry, as well as pale faces and the tiny red bow lips. I was sitting at the back, and a woman walked up and asked me what was going on. I said it was a bellydance performance. She said, "So they just do anything and call it bellydance?!" She sounded genuinely confused, and I had to try hard to keep from laughing... Little did she know how right she was...

Dear Sharon,
Yeah... and then we wonder why it is so difficult for us to gain respect from dancers in other genres. Heck, we don't even know what we are doing half the time, so why should anyone else respect our art form when many of us don't?
I still want to try Tap On Point with Flaming Batons Belly Dance some day...oh, unless the BDSS has already been there and done that. (In all honesty, I do like what Sabbah and Hallah created... it ain't belly dance but its beautiful!!)
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

Dear Shanazel,

The average American has no idea what in heck the words "Am Cab" even means, and they thinkl belly dance means the dancer is doing something from the exotic land far away, not from California.
Regards,
A'isha

The average American doesn't care about belly dance at all. There are no goal lines, balls, or large musclebound males involved in physical violence.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

The average American doesn't care about belly dance at all. There are no goal lines, balls, or large musclebound males involved in physical violence.

Dear Shanazel,
What I have found is the average American will turn out in droves to watch belly dancers in any venue where we perform for free. They are usually the most popular thing at street fairs, community celebrations, etc. At Firstnight, we generally draw a crowd of about 300, which is one of the biggest. People people pay a price for a ticket for the entire event and do not pay separately to see us. I made it habit years ago to take polls and see what people thought of the dance and WHAT they thought they were seeing. They usually think they are seeing an exotic dance from the mysterious and fuzzy Middle East. They usually thought it was Turkish or Arabian, sometimes Hindi. They usually like it a bunch. I have attended and usually participated in dance events all over the country and have found this to be true just about everywhere.
I have a generally higher opinion of my fellow Americans than you state above, but I do not live in Wyoming. I could not live there because I hate that Devil's Pass thing, which when I went over it many years ago was the scariest road in America, or perhaps the world. The second scariest is the one that you have to take through the mountains to go to Marya's house. Especially if you are driving my husband's big Ford truck which I am pretty sure does not fit on the road.... My best friend went with me to teach workshop there, and told me Marya's road makes traversing the Swiss and Italian Alps look like traveling in Kansas!! Kansas is so flat, if they removed the tress and buildings you could see clear across the whole state. I have never been to the Alps, but she has and she would not lie about a thing like that.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

I have a generally higher opinion of my fellow Americans than you state above, but I do not live in Wyoming.

I was being facetious, but I do wonder what kind of crowd any of us would've drawn last weekend had we not been featured on a beer commercial or during halftime.

I am not familiar with Devil's Pass by that name, but suspect you may be referring to the old Alternate-14 from the Medicine Wheel into the Basin. We called it the Oh-My-God Highway for its narrowness, hairpin turns, and the mile and a half drop to the Basin Floor. I'd LOVE to see Marya's driveway!

Joe American knows in a general way that belly dance originated in the middle east (Hindi? Hmm.), but there is no reason he can't learn that belly dancing came to the US with middle eastern immigrants and evolved here into AmCab or American Oriental or American Tribal.

Well, we agreed to disagree about this years ago, but it's nice to check up once in a while to make sure neither of us have undergone a conversion of some type.