Turkish man

[Jane]

I thought this was interesting. Can anyone give me more information on this? Thanks!

 

[masrawy]

well, for starter he is very gay ....

 

[Jane]

well, for starter he is very gay ....

Yeah, I was thinking that might be the case

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

Well, where is the problem if he is gay? He is a good dancer and a good singer. The movie seems to be from the 60ies or 70ies, so I suppose he is an old man now. Maybe our Turkish members know more about him.

 

[Jane]

Not a problem for me if he's gay. Maybe he isn't anyway.

His performance did seem feminine though, so I was wondering if he might be, or have a connection to, the traditional kochek entertainers of Turkey. I've been reading about them lately. Many boy troupes of kochek were (or were forced to be) homosexual.

 

[Aniseteph]

Did you see this one too - not sure about the trousers.... :shok:
YouTube - Turkish Belly Dancer,Kudret Sandra (Sandrali) & one oriental

 

[Pirika Repun]

Here is this video's information from YouTube.

Turkish Belly dancer,Kudret Sandra (Sandrali) he was the first teacher of many famous name like Prenses Banu ...Zenne or Kocek is the name for male belly dancing in Turkey . he was a dancer as well as actor

I also find he was born in 1932, and in 13 filmes. I don't know which film is this clips. Kudret Sandra

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Not a problem for me if he's gay. Maybe he isn't anyway.

His performance did seem feminine though, so I was wondering if he might be, or have a connection to, the traditional kochek entertainers of Turkey. I've been reading about them lately. Many boy troupes of kochek were (or were forced to be) homosexual.

He was an entertainer and a comic. He was not a kochek. The connection between Kochecks and homosexuality has been exaggerated greatly. They were not female impersonators and they were not forced to be homosexuals. Were some of them homosexual? Lets put it this way, are some soccer players, boxers, politicians homosexual? Of course, but would we say all of them are? No. Same hold true for dancers.

The rumor of homosexuality was first started by Europeans who sought to slander the image of the Ottoman Empire by showing them to be morally and intellectually inferior. Why? Because at the time the Ottomans were an major world power who was blocking their attempts at colonizing the Middle East and access to its resources, that's why.

Later, when the Empire was falling apart it was overthrown by the political organization called the YOUNG TURKS lead by Kemal Atta Turk who became the first president of the Turkish Republic. He wanted to make a clean cut with the past. He outlawed the wearing of traditional clothing, abolished the head scarf, adopted the Latin Alphabet and tried to purge the language of all Arabic influences. He also outlawed the practice and ceremonies of the Whiling Dervishes of Konya. He wanted to sever all connections with the Ottoman past. HE also began to slander the Ottoman culture as being homosexual and perverse.

For a very long time, Turks turned their backs on anything having to do with the Ottoman culture, even the music and dance. The Kochecks remained active, but only in the rural communities, not Istanbul. Within the past 10 years or so, there has been a rediscovery of the Ottoman past and the people are beginning to revive it and take pride in it. It seems this generation no longer feels threatened by the ghosts of the past. Along with the resurgence have come the Kochecks who are now very popular all over Turkey once again and can be found everywhere from community picknicks, weddings, circumcision celebrations, the opening of new stores, to night clubs and T.V shows.

They are not impersonating women. They wear skirts for costume because it is dramatic, the same reason why the Dervishes wear wide skirts. They sometimes roll up their vests to have more freedom of movement in the torso, but they are still wearing a man's verst, a man's shirt and man's trousers under the skirt.

These are REAL modern day Kochecks:


They never wear a woman's head scarf unless they are doing a comedy and in that case they also wear fake breast as well:

 

[masrawy]

He was an entertainer and a comic. He was not a kochek. The connection between Kochecks and homosexuality has been exaggerated greatly. They were not female impersonators and they were not forced to be homosexuals. Were some of them homosexual? Lets put it this way, are some soccer players, boxers, politicians homosexual? Of course, but would we say all of them are? No. Same hold true for dancers.
//Cut
They never wear a woman's head scarf unless they are doing a comedy and in that case they also wear fake breast as well:

Hey Tarik,

The comparison here is not quite right. The soccer player, the boxer .... when they perform their jobs it would have no effect if the are homosexual. Belly dance is a little different there is a fine line that if you cross it you become one or another.

The second clip have confirmed my hunch that he's gay

After seen you last Saturday ( thanks to Pirika ) I could see you knew where is that line was, you knew your audience and provided them with a good entertainment they appreciated.

I personally have no problem with the gay dancer as long as it is clear as of what it is .. then it is my choice to look at it or not.
Let's put it this way I could teach a goat to hop and dance, but I don't have to force people to accepted as the norm and wonder why they don't appreciated is it becouse it's a goat !! They will wonder .....

Your clips for the Turkish dance is interesting ... but once you have a polished cut diamond, a primitive stone will not do for me. Of course I'm biased here, since I consider the Egyptian have refined the belly dance to point that no other could compete.

Good show, you have put together my friend :clap:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Hey Tarik,

The comparison here is not quite right. The soccer player, the boxer .... when they perform their jobs it would have no effect if the are homosexual. Belly dance is a little different there is a fine line that if you cross it you become one or another.

The second clip have confirmed my hunch that he's gay

After seen you last Saturday ( thanks to Pirika ) I could see you knew where is that line was, you knew your audience and provided them with a good entertainment they appreciated.

I personally have no problem with the gay dancer as long as it is clear as of what it is .. then it is my choice to look at it or not.
Let's put it this way I could teach a goat to hop and dance, but I don't have to force people to accepted as the norm and wonder why they don't appreciated is it becouse it's a goat !! They will wonder .....

Your clips for the Turkish dance is interesting ... but once you have a polished cut diamond, a primitive stone will not do for me. Of course I'm biased here, since I consider the Egyptian have refined the belly dance to point that no other could compete.

Good show, you have put together my friend :clap:

I understand where you are coming from, always did by the way and now that you've actually seen me dance and for an all Egyptian mostly male, very baladi audience, I think you understand some of what I explained in the past on this point.

As for the whole sexuality thing, he might have been gay. The thing is he was also a comedian and I've seen clips of him in another movie where he was not projecting an effeminate vibe. I think we would need to know the context of the film and a bit more about his actual career to say for sure.

My comparison with athletes was just to make the point that a person's profession is not necessarily an indication of their sexual orientation. If this guy was indeed gay, then he was gay because that's what he was, the dancing didn't make him that way. However, male dancers in almost every style have to deal with the fact that if a guy is a dancer people automatically assume he's gay. Just as if a guy is an athlete most people automatically assume he's straight. The reality is that there are many male dancers who are straight and there are many sports players who are gay.

As for the Kochecks. This isn't Sharki at all. Its one of the many varieties of Baladi influenced dance styles found throughout North Africa and the Middle East. Its like Ghawazee dance. Its very simple and rustic, but once you accept it on its own terms, then you can see its charm. You know, its like food. Sometimes you're in the mood for a gourmet meal in a fancy restaurant and sometimes you much prefer mom's home cooking. Its not that one is better than the other is it?

 

[Dev]

well, for starter he is very gay ....

He might be gay but why do you give an emphasis on something that has nothing to do with someones ability to dance or sing ( or am i missing something here ). I am sure you are not homophobic and you have a wonderful sense of humour, But I notice you make snippet or neg comments about things which are not that important , also when you make a comment you actually dont explain it.

By the way most of the gay people I know in real life are, builders, farmers, mechanics with all sorts of various careers. I am singing Bob Dylon at the moment.

 

[Jane]

Thank you all for the information! I will keep my eyes peeled for more about him and his dancing and acting.

So...
do we think the feminine feeling might have been a comedy shtick for the movie? Does anyone know for sure? Where are the Turks on the forum?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Back to square 1

Thank you all for the information! I will keep my eyes peeled for more about him and his dancing and acting.

So...
do we think the feminine feeling might have been a comedy shtick for the movie? Does anyone know for sure? Where are the Turks on the forum?

I confused him with another actor. Her wasn't a comic. I can't find any info on him in English. Can't tell what he was really all about.

Okay, to the real important issue, was he a good dancer? In my opinion, he was a better singer. I didn't care for his dancing at all. His posture was terrible and his movements not that good at all and my biggest pet peeve, his costuming was horrid. The top looked cheap and not well made and Capri pants? !! WTF? If he taught Princess Banu..... that explains a lot about her dancing..... if I can call it that.

His sexuality.... incidental, but when that is the stereotypical image people expect of a male dancer, the way he presents himself, his body language etc does very little to contradict the stereotype, rather, it reenforces it. I don't have a problem with gay men per say, but I do have a problem with caricatures of all kinds and to me he is a caricature of the limp wrist, sissy gay male stereotype. Most gay men I know are mind numbingly, boring, uninteresting and NORMAL. Which is why to me the Gay Pride Parade is one of the most uninteresting parades in the City. A few drag queen, a few gym rats and scores of frumpy uninteresting folks who just happen to be gay..... big whop! However, that reality doesn't sell tickets to movies or make for interesting T.V characters does it?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

These are REAL modern day Kochecks:


Hi Tarik,

This Kochek clip reminded me alot of Ghawaee, is there any connection?

They never wear a woman's head scarf unless they are doing a comedy and in that case they also wear fake breast as well:

Do you think that the fact they do this, may mean that there was a connection with impersonating women?

Where does all the research about Kocheks come from and what is the main source for the historical context which you described earlier?

I know little about Turkish dancing and it's history.

Caroline

PS I just read through the earlier posts and see you already made a comparison yourself!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

They are not impersonating women. They wear skirts for costume because it is dramatic, the same reason why the Dervishes wear wide skirts.

I was thinking about this statement and a few thoughts came to mind..

My understanding of the 'skirt' in Devish rituals about the elevation to the higher being and the universe (creating circles and spinning like planets to get higher to God).

I dont know if that is the 'truth' and I do question everything, but I have heard this from more than one source.

If it is true, that would change the reasons why Kocheks wear skirts as their skirts are more like ones worn traditionally by Kurdish women.

Is this your rationale or is this something you have researched or been told?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Do you think that the fact they do this, may mean that there was a connection with impersonating women?

In The second clip they ARE impersonating women. Its a joke. Turkish dances are full of role playing and parody. In the old days when women were not allowed to perform publicly men would do it in certain situations. They were not just dancers but variety entertainers. They sang, did acrobatics, magic tricks and acted as well. So if there was a skit that had a woman's role in it, they would play the part, in the same way that men did during Shakespeare's time. There wasn't anything sexual about it. However, for the Europeans, who felt threatened by the Turks on religious and political grounds, (remember who came knocking at the gates of Vienna?), they reported it to be something that it was not. They choose to report it in a distorted light because it supported their agenda to make the competition look like amoral heathens by creating the propaganda of the lascivious Turk.

Where does all the research about Kocheks come from and what is the main source for the historical context which you described earlier?

Very little has been written about it, just as there has been very little written about Egyptian dance by serious scholars. However, the most complete and accurate work has been written by Turkish dance scholar Metin And in his book "A pictorial history of Turkish Dance". Unfortunately, because he is of the anti-Ottoman generation, he falls into the same slandering stereotypes by painting the Turkish male dancers as homosexuals and the female dancers as Lesbians, which would mean that by extension the Turks were all gays and lesbians..... Yeah, that's logical. That's why their population is growing instead of dying out! Its interesting to note that this "information" came from the journals of European travelers who would have NEVER been allowed to see the female performers as they danced strictly for the women. At points And totally plagiarizes their statements word for word so that if you hadn't read the passage in the original travelers notes, you would think these were his words. Despite this the book does give a great deal of information about how the companies were organized, how they were paid, how their shows were organized, what they wore, how long their careers lasted etc.

Other sources of information comes from a book, the title of which escapes me now, written by a lady who grew up in Topkapi Palace and then the newer one, built in the 19th century. She spoke about the entertainments in the palace and mentions that there were male and female dancers and that there was nothing salacious about life in the Grand Harem, nor the entertainment.

The final and most compelling bit of imformation comes from the resurgence of the Kochecks themselves. Its clear that they are not trying to be feminine. The skirt is COSTUME and not dress and is the same costume that was worn by all male dancers from Tunisia to Turkey. Even today you can see a version of it in the Tunisian male dances.

So when you look at a full spectrum of the way Turkish men dance socially, when you look at miniature paintings of Kochecks from the 1500 on,as well as seeing them today, read descriptions of the outfits worn by male dancer in Egypt by people like Lane, see the outfits worn in Tunisia and then look at what women wore in the Ottoman Empire prior to the modern age, you see that A. The Kocheks are not imitating women's dance, they are just dancing the same way that ordinary men dance in Turkey, B. We see the same outfit worn throughout the Ottoman Empire. C. Women didn't wear anything that looked like that, because they wore PANTS, then D. the supposition that they dressed as and danced like women is false. Its a reflection of a Eurocentric racist mentality to paint these people, their religion, their politics and their culture in the basest terms. A problem that is still very much with us and affecting the West's foreign policies with that region to this day. Its a gross exaggeration and slander coming from the primitive minds of a group of people incapable of recognizing the common humanity of the peoples they encountered in other regions.

I know little about Turkish dancing and it's history.

Caroline

PS I just read through the earlier posts and see you already made a comparison yourself!

What comparison was that?

 

[Shanazel]

He did more posturing and singing than he did dancing.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

If a picture is worth a thousand words, video is worth millions. Here's a billion.

I was thinking about this statement and a few thoughts came to mind..

My understanding of the 'skirt' in Devish rituals about the elevation to the higher being and the universe (creating circles and spinning like planets to get higher to God).

I dont know if that is the 'truth' and I do question everything, but I have heard this from more than one source.

If it is true, that would change the reasons why Kocheks wear skirts as their skirts are more like ones worn traditionally by Kurdish women.

Is this your rationale or is this something you have researched or been told?

From the pictorial evidence prior to the 1500 both Kochecks and Dervishes performed in the same tunics worn by the ordinary people. After this time we see depictions of both in skirts. Therefore the outfits we see today were a later development. The basic outfit adopted through the Ottoman Empire for male dancers was a vest worn over a shirt and a shirt worn over their ordinary pants. Color, style etc varied from region to region, but they were all just variations on the theme. Here are a couple examples of the Tunisian variation on this costume:




The Turks like theirs more colorful, often wearing several layers, but its all still the basic idea. In the book Looking for Little Egypt, there's a picture of a Syrian dancer named Mohamed who performed at the Chicago World's fair wearing a version of the same outfit.

When I was in Turkey I saw and spoke with dervishes in both Konya and Capadocia and I asked them why they adopted this outfit. They both told me the same thing, because it looks beautiful.

As stated earlier, the outfits of the kochecks are not female dress, they are COSTUME. I provided a clip of what they wear when they do dress up as women. Now here's a video of the Turkish female folk dancers dancers:

This is what Turkish women wore back then and still do in rural areas.

This is a guy doing a comedy dance in drag:


Another version of the same dance. I'll let you figure out which one is NOT a real girl


Kocheks and Female dancers. Different outfits. If they were supposed to be women, they'd have dressed like them. Not only is the costume different, but the spirit and energy as well:




Kochecks without the skirts and female dancers:


Kochecks/musicians without skirts and Turkish man at a festival doing social dance. Now you understand why they wear the skirt. It makes the dance look more dramatic.





I've provided you with an overwhelming amount of evidence. Its time now to let the persistent stereotypes and cultural distortions die like the twisted minds who created them in the first place. They are people just like the rest of us. There's nothing mysterious or exotic about them. Only the persistent tendencies of Westerners to see them as being less than human, flawed, damaged and in need of fixing, rather than trying to see them on their own terms and trying to understand them. Time and time again I am confronted with the same rehashing of the same tired stereotypes and it infuriates me to no end.

I'm no expert on anything at all. But it just makes me wonder why is it that I, no one special at all, can figure these things out and find the evidence and so called "Experts" and "Scholars" can't. It tells me they all have their own agendas and DON'T want to know the truth and that's why I spend so much time and energy on this and related topics.

 

[Jane]

Metin And, and other sources that reference his work, are where I have gotten most of my info on kochek dancers. Are there any newer written sources I need to be checking into? I have been told that dancers in both Turkey and Egypt were primarily from groups of marginalized people, including homosexuals. Is this not correct?

I understand about the skirt being a specific dance outfit for the Ottoman men/boys. I have never seen a picture of a woman wearing one, or a man wearing one as everyday clothing.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Metin And, and other sources that reference his work, are where I have gotten most of my info on kochek dancers. Are there any newer written sources I need to be checking into? I have been told that dancers in both Turkey and Egypt were primarily from groups of marginalized people, including homosexuals. Is this not correct?

This whole issue annoys me and if my tone seems hostile at times, please realize its not directed at you but the situation in general.

Okay, lets be perfectly clear and honest about something here. Prior to the 20th century, both male and female performers in the West were considered marginal characters. Ballarinas, singers whether they were choir boys or Opera singers, male and female, especially when they were young, were assumed to be sexually available. In fact up until the 19th century boys were frequently castrated in Europe to retain a falsetto voice and they often played female roles in the Opera in full drag. And because they were often very poor, or orphans, they often times were out of sheer necessity. A great novel that reflects this is Ann Rice's A Cry to Heaven, which was very well researched on her part. How ridiculous would it seem to us if someone were to suggest that being a prostitute or homosexual was a prerequisite then or now, to being a ballet dancer, actor/actress or singer?

Why then is it such a hot topic that the same mentality and circumstances existed in the Middle East? When we talk about the Ballet or Opera do we feel the morbid need to obsess over the tawdry side of these art forms histories? Now all of these Western arts have been able to move ahead and beyond the unfortunate circumstances that existed behind the scenes, yet when it comes to Middle Eastern Dance, especially when the issue is male dancers, we just cant seem to get past it. We have to constantly keep looking back like a little kid checking the toilet after he's taken a dump, refusing to flush the damn thing!

Neither the dance nor the performers were homosexuals or had anything to do with homosexuality persay. The fact is that unfortunately, if the performers did not have sufficient protection/wealth, they could and did find themselves the victims of sexual predators, just like their Western counterparts. Why is it then that all these European travelers whom And quoted felt the need to focus on the toilet? Doesn't every house have a sewer? Of course it does. But they've exaggerated the situation, taken things out of context and out right just fell victim to cultural ignorance. They went on and on and on painting the Middle East as a gay sex wonderland, while the streets of Europe were full of male prostitutes plying their trade. They even had business cards! Obviously this sick obsession was created to paint these people in a negative and dehumanizing light and the time has come to put an end to it.

The truth is that the majority of Kochecks married, raised families and opened more acceptable businesses with the money they had saved

For more information about male dancers in the Middle East and Central Asia, including the complex issue of sexuality, you might check the works of AnthonyShea. This is an article he wrote specifically about male dancers.
Nima Kiann's Forum of Persian and Middle Eastern Dance

I understand about the skirt being a specific dance outfit for the Ottoman men/boys. I have never seen a picture of a woman wearing one, or a man wearing one as everyday clothing.

Exactly. It was just costume, nothing more nothing less.