The appeal of the exotic, cultural appropriation

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Long meandering reply to the original post

Okay, Cathy are you sort of pussy-footing around the question:
Are dancers themselves engaging in Orientalism/Orientalistic behavior?



We had a discussion on Bhuz about dancers themselves perpetuating Orientalist stereotypes, which you might want to check out. I think the thread was PC and Bellydance or something like that.

Or, if not ---

It's funny you should mention cultural appropriation. I have been torn from side to side on the whole ISSUE of what is, what is not, and what should be bellydance, and I can't say I've really resolved it in my mind.

I asked my soc advisor about cultural appropriation and the often resulting imperialism that comes with it. The whole "I like that thing you ethnic peoples do -- now I'm going to do it. Only I'll do it BETTER."

That attitude is the problem in our culture (the US) and if I had saved the links I could show you many posts from dance students who have literally said: Americans are making the dance BETTER or more palatable (presumably to American audiences.)

There's an assumption some people have:
-- Bellydance is too subtle to be appreciated by American audiences. We have to "liven it up" with props or fancier moves.

(We assume that our beloved general public just can't UNDERSTAND or appreciate the subtle nuances of Egyptian bellydance, so we throw in a snake, some veils, lion-tamers, whatever -- just to keep things "interesting."

This assumption is bunk. Americans can TOTALLY appreciate all the subtleties of the dance. They just can't necessarily do it for 2 hours straight. I'll be honest -- if the show runs 3 hours long, as some competitions do, I have a hard time staying interested, even when it's phenomenal dancing!

Anyway, I've heard young (read: inexperienced) dancers say, "well the audience can't appreciate Egyptian style, so I'm going to make the dance BETTER by adding Thai nail extensions and dancing to techno." Whatever.

Cultural appropriation is natural, normal. It's why we get called a "melting pot." But it can occur in a way that makes it offensive.

Offensive cultural appropriation is taking something from a people and then trying to sell it back to them as "authentic" without caring if it really is. Offensive cultural appropriation is taking something from a people without concern for how that people used it, and using it how you want. Offensive cultural appropriation is getting mad at people who question your motives for appropriating, and then hiding behind the "back off: this is my art. Don't stifle my creativity" veil.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I have noticed in my own city that most of the audience for Oriental dance are either dancers themselves, their friends, or Middle Easterners. Why do you think that is?

You're in New York, yes? Possibly competition. Why go see something familiar when you can instead see Cats or an art exhibit, or a concert or have dinner with your family?

You guys know "Rocky Horror" ? I used to be part of a group that used to dress up and act out the whole thing on stage. We did this for 3 years one weekend a month. They have RH shows here now, and people can't understand why I don't go. "But you were so INTO it back then!" then say. Uh, yeah, but I'm kind of tired of it now, ya know?

A lot of bellydance shows aren't that entertaining, really. Student showcase. We love em cause they showcase our students. But I guess for a lot of Arabs, it's kind of like going to a children's dance recital. If it's not your kid up there, it's not the most exciting show on the planet.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Dear Aziyade,
There is the other side of that coin. Both the East and the West have been eroticised. I know Saudi guys who, when they first came here, thought that every girl in the States was their's for the taking. They were sorely disappointed to find out that their friends greatly exaggerated the availability of western women for sexual entertainment. You should hear some of the stories that the guys tell me they have heard about women in the States!! I once had some idiot from the Gulf assume that because I was the only woman at the table who did not have a man with me, that I must be for him, especially since I was wearing an off the shoulder sweater. Never mind that my skirt and sleeves were long!! He was quite surprised when one of the other guys gave him what for and told him in so many words to keep away from me. ( He actually apologized.)The whole issue of our supposedly low morals is all about eroticising the west from the Middle Eastern viewpoint. This is a double edged sword and at its basis is a misunderstanding of culture on many levels, but of course, sex is always the predominant element in these things, isn't it?
I hope to find time to read your thesis today.
Regards,
A'isha

I actually hope what I uploaded is actually the draft where I get into the sex roles -- I have so many different versions of this original paper! This never developed into the thesis- just explored a few of the concepts, and revolves around art. I hope it's at least mildly interesting. I just realized the notes aren't there, but if you want the citations, I have them.

 

[cathy]

1001 Nights "Women's version"

You know 1001 Nights is a collection of written-down stories, but there's an oral tradition that goes back waaaaay far in history and is sometimes referred to as the "women's version" because the stories are largely the same PLOT but the women's role in the stories is very different. The "moral" of some of those stories is completely different in the women's version. There are Scottish stories that are the same way. I assume lots of cultures have "women's stories" that didn't quite make it to print.

Good to know! Does the first guy sleep with a different virgin each night and then and kill each in the morning?

Thanks, Cathy

 

[cathy]

Okay, Cathy are you sort of pussy-footing around the question:
Are dancers themselves engaging in Orientalism/Orientalistic behavior?

We had a discussion on Bhuz about dancers themselves perpetuating Orientalist stereotypes, which you might want to check out. I think the thread was PC and Bellydance or something like that.

Or, if not ---

It's funny you should mention cultural appropriation. I have been torn from side to side on the whole ISSUE of what is, what is not, and what should be bellydance, and I can't say I've really resolved it in my mind.

I asked my soc advisor about cultural appropriation and the often resulting imperialism that comes with it. The whole "I like that thing you ethnic peoples do -- now I'm going to do it. Only I'll do it BETTER."

That attitude is the problem in our culture (the US) and if I had saved the links I could show you many posts from dance students who have literally said: Americans are making the dance BETTER or more palatable (presumably to American audiences.)

There's an assumption some people have:
-- Bellydance is too subtle to be appreciated by American audiences. We have to "liven it up" with props or fancier moves.

(We assume that our beloved general public just can't UNDERSTAND or appreciate the subtle nuances of Egyptian bellydance, so we throw in a snake, some veils, lion-tamers, whatever -- just to keep things "interesting."

This assumption is bunk. Americans can TOTALLY appreciate all the subtleties of the dance. They just can't necessarily do it for 2 hours straight. I'll be honest -- if the show runs 3 hours long, as some competitions do, I have a hard time staying interested, even when it's phenomenal dancing!

Anyway, I've heard young (read: inexperienced) dancers say, "well the audience can't appreciate Egyptian style, so I'm going to make the dance BETTER by adding Thai nail extensions and dancing to techno." Whatever.

Cultural appropriation is natural, normal. It's why we get called a "melting pot." But it can occur in a way that makes it offensive.

Offensive cultural appropriation is taking something from a people and then trying to sell it back to them as "authentic" without caring if it really is. Offensive cultural appropriation is taking something from a people without concern for how that people used it, and using it how you want. Offensive cultural appropriation is getting mad at people who question your motives for appropriating, and then hiding behind the "back off: this is my art. Don't stifle my creativity" veil.

Hi Aziyade,

Maybe this was the question I was trying to ask. It's a good, provocative question anyway, and I'll look up the Bhuz thread when I can get my login working again (long boring story about cookies).

I can definitely see how this issue is related to what is, is not, and should be called Oriental dance (sorry but I see the term "bellydance" as part of the confusion and problem but do not want to get into that now). After all if you change the dance, but claim it is the same dance or "better" or "expanded", the negative aspects of appropriation loom larger.

I don't see Westerners as making the dance better or more palatable. What's weird is that you are describing dancers saying that they are choosing to make these changes for the sake of the audience. But do they not change it because *they* like it better that way and then trying to rationalize the reason? I guess where that leads me to is WHY do they want to make those changes--and still call it authentic?

OK I am going to go finish reading your paper now. Thanks, Cathy

 

[cathy]

If you all have nothing better to do for an afternoon, I invite you to partake of the art history section of what would eventually have been my thesis on artificially created sex roles in the east: Eroticising the East (somewhere in the middle draft)

Eroticising the east

Let me know if this doesn't work, permission-wise.

Please do not reproduce any sections of this without my permission. I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just that I may work part of into something else someday.

Dear Aziyade,

Thanks again for letting us read your paper. I had read just a bit about hte paintings and a bit more about the staged photography before. I just about stood up and cheered at a few passages, such as the top of page 7. Now I really have to read Fatima Mernissi and also to tackle Edward Said (the latter I have tried but it's hard going for me!)

It helped me clarify my question which is given that our culture is drenched in these Orientalist myths about the East, and that these images are either in the foreground or background in most Western minds when first starting to study the dance, how do we root out and challenge those preconceived notions and replace them with truth? You say "This early exposure to false portrayals led me to seek out accurate ones. Their lies led me to the truth."
But what about the dancers who prefer to bask in their own version of the fantasy? There are plenty "civilians" out there with mistaken ideas as well but it's dancers who perpetuate them that I am most wondering about at this moment.

I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to be attracted to learning this dance because of a fantasy of what it is like initially. I myself do not think my own interest arose because of "I Dream of Jeannie" or anything like that (well, not that in particular, because I never actually watched it), but a lot of cultural stereotypes sink in unconsciously. What I'm wondering is, given that every Westerner started with some amount of this conditioning, what effect does that have on learning the truth? Especially if one is deeply enchanted by the fantasy--it seems one is going to be resistant to letting it go in favor of the truth. Like the British newspaper you mention on page 2 near the top that rejected a photo of a real Turkish living room because "the British public would not accept it" preferring their fantasy over reality or as you say "the exotic, not the familiar."

Thanks, Cathy

 

[Aisha Azar]

Orientalism, etc.

Dear Aziyade,
I read your paper and enjoyed it very much. I thought your descriptions of certain painting were excellent. I even recognized some of them from just your descriptions! Your use of sources was very good, too. I loved Edward Said and think he was important in helping to dispel some of the prejudices in this world. Mernissi I am not so crazy about and I will explain why.
I have read her work and found her to romanticize and skirt the truth as much as any westerner. There may have been a few women who were bow and arrow shooters, etc, but not many. The average women of no importance would not have been allowed that status. She also tries to totally downplay the erotic behaviors that went on, right beside the political intrigue, in harems in Turkish and Persian courts, where sometimes literally hundreds of women lived together and vied for the favors of.....one... man. And if they managed to be first in line with a son for this man, well, all the better for them.( though the kid might be killed.) This is the truth that the erotic fantasy of the west is based in. It is not based in the every day harem life of Hoda Sharawi of Egypt or Mernissi of Morocco, but instead on the life of the women who lived in the Sultan's harem. What Mernissi did not say is that the intelligent woman in one of those harems was both "the half naked dancing girl" AND "the strong willed intellectual". Those two things are not mutually exclusive now and have never been. I can not swear to this and have never heard much about it, but there was probably a lot of same sex sexual activity in these harems as well as the sneaking in of some men. This is reported to have happened in wealthy Chinese harems for sure, for example in the Forbidden City where no men were supposed to be a night except the King!!
You mention Jean Thevenot as saying that Turkish women dressed like men. She probably considered the yelek and shalwar, which was worn by women throughout Turkey and in Egypt in the cities, as male clothing since it was trousers. We must take into account that she was European and western women were wearing dresses!!
You say, "The East was a non-threatenting vista in which to place unacceptable sexual desires." What a great way to put it!! I see this same thing happening with many of the Arab guys who come to the States with their fantasies of sexy western blonde babes ready to do their every bidding!!
At home sleeping around carries a very heavy penalty if you are caught. For single men and women, a public beating. For married ones, death. Here, you can actually have sex without fear of social retribution!!!! ( Although I have taken the time to let some of the guys that I know well, know about things like Chlamydia, which can render their wives sterile.... usually scares the heck out of them for 15 minutes! I have actually begged some guys to PLEASE get checked for STDs before they go home and give something to their wives or future wives, for which the girls might get blamed. There is very little sex education in many Arab schools.... not that it seems to help here in the States anyway!)
I agree with Edward Said about the kind of portrayals of one group, that villifies them or turns them into the anthropological "Other". I see it every day as I deal with both Americans and Arabs. It seems that I am often in the position where I need to defend one group to the other. The thing is that this Orientalism carried the small kernal of truth that became the whole picture in the West and was taken entirely out of context to the other truths going on there. I loved the way you said it best!! "A truth wrapped in a falsehood".
It is not so much that the Orientalists outright lied, but that they falsely painted only a corner of the entire picture.
BTW, I have a really wonderful book on Orientalist art, in which there are a great many words of wisdom about the art and how it portrayed the East. The info is:

The Orientalists: Western artists in Arabia, The Sahara, Persia and India
By Kristian Davies
Laynfaroh, New York, 2005
ISBN 0-9759783-0-6

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Rick Fink]

Hey everyone,

Great posts! I would like to say that from my research I discovered that the Orientalist painters worked extremely hard to create an accurate view of people and places in the Middle East.

Check it out if you're interested:

www.orientalistart.net

Take care, Rick Fink

 

[Kharmine]

IMHO, Orientalism has wrongly been turned into a dirty word.

It's been some time since I've read Edward Said's book "Orientalism," but what I remember most is how it revolutionized academia, my college included. The term "political correctness" was unknown then, but that's basically what it created as regards what was "acceptable" study and opinions about the Middle East (what used to be called "the Orient).

I'm well aware there were excesses, inaccuracies and prejudices among "Orientalists" and their ""orientalism." However, IMHO, Said was way too broad and dismissive. But his book's impact was huge. "Orientalist" came to be a dirty word and heaven help anyone who didn't agree with Said's premises and charges.

Thankfully, there's been more attention paid lately to the views of scholars who didn't agree with Said and are able to point out his own mistakes and prejudices. I'm reading an amazing book now, "Dangerous Knowledge: Orientalism and Its Discontents" by Robert Irwin, himself a scholar in what used to be called "orientalism." I recommend it.

At any rate, learning something that is shared freely, taught, and understood that it won't be reproduced exactly as one person teaches it -- that's not appropriation. Pretending that something is completely of a certain culture when only some elements have been borrowed from it and it's being reinterpreted in a manner that's outside that culture -- that's appropriation.

How do we know when something is being appropriated? Well, what kind of claims are being made? Who's making them? What kind of rep do they have? And, very importantly, can you check what they're claiming against other, credible and independent sources?

Because if you can't -- if there simply are no other sources to verify the claims -- you can almost bet the claims are merely opinion or even outright fantasy.

 

[cathy]

IMHO, Orientalism has wrongly been turned into a dirty word.

It's been some time since I've read Edward Said's book "Orientalism," but what I remember most is how it revolutionized academia, my college included. The term "political correctness" was unknown then, but that's basically what it created as regards what was "acceptable" study and opinions about the Middle East (what used to be called "the Orient).

I'm well aware there were excesses, inaccuracies and prejudices among "Orientalists" and their ""orientalism." However, IMHO, Said was way too broad and dismissive. But his book's impact was huge. "Orientalist" came to be a dirty word and heaven help anyone who didn't agree with Said's premises and charges.

Thankfully, there's been more attention paid lately to the views of scholars who didn't agree with Said and are able to point out his own mistakes and prejudices. I'm reading an amazing book now, "Dangerous Knowledge: Orientalism and Its Discontents" by Robert Irwin, himself a scholar in what used to be called "orientalism." I recommend it.

At any rate, learning something that is shared freely, taught, and understood that it won't be reproduced exactly as one person teaches it -- that's not appropriation. Pretending that something is completely of a certain culture when only some elements have been borrowed from it and it's being reinterpreted in a manner that's outside that culture -- that's appropriation.

How do we know when something is being appropriated? Well, what kind of claims are being made? Who's making them? What kind of rep do they have? And, very importantly, can you check what they're claiming against other, credible and independent sources?

Because if you can't -- if there simply are no other sources to verify the claims -- you can almost bet the claims are merely opinion or even outright fantasy.

Hi Kharmine,

Did the Orientalist painters call themselves that? At what point would you say "orientalism" became a dirty word? Did Said make it that, or did it happen before him?

Thanks for the book recommendation and for your clear-headed (as always) comments on appropriation. When you say "Pretending that something is completely of a certain culture when only some elements have been borrowed from it and it's being reinterpreted in a manner that's outside that culture-- that's appropriation" it makes me wonder whether you consider it appropriate that American styles such as AmCab be known by a name that specifically draws a distinction between them and Raks Sharki. And of course whether you see the name "belly dance" as an umbrella term suitable for both.

Thanks, Cathy

 

[cathy]

Rick, thanks for your link. I enjoyed actually seeing those paintings! A long time ago I read a book about the Pre-Raphaelites but never made the connection.

Kharmine--I read the Amazon reviews of the Irwin book. If I ever muster the stamina to read Said's Orientalism I will read Irwin after.

Two more thoughts flowing out of this. One is from one of the Amazon reviewers of Irwin: "Most great deceptions involve self-deception." That's getting at what I have been mulling over.

And Sartre said something like "All statements of belief are also statements of despair." As in when we say "I believe in God" or any other "I have the truth" statement, we are also inside comparing our own state of belief with that of others, and worrying because we cannot know for sure if we are lacking.

Cathy

 

[Rick Fink]

Thanks Cathy,

It's important to understand that Saids' book came out in the 1970s at the height of radical feminism. In the extreme feminists eyes all nudes of women were sexual exploitation.

There is this widespread misconception that Orientalist paintings were mostly nudes- nothing could be further from the truth. Only a fraction were and frequently the artisits never displayed them in the state exibitions.

Also there is this notion that 19th century Europeans were sexually repressed and in desperate need of a thrill! When Napoleon invaded Egypt in 1798 he started an affair with the wife of a junior officer who divorced her husband so that she could become Napoleons' mistress. Meanwhile Josephine was back in Paris carrying on her own affair. Napoleon had often begged her to stop seeing other men while he was away but she refused.

Courtesans in the 19th century were celebrated in art, song, poetry and literature. There were far more nudes of pretty French girls than there ever were of harem scenes.

Take care, Rick

 

[Kharmine]

Hi Kharmine,

Did the Orientalist painters call themselves that? At what point would you say "orientalism" became a dirty word? Did Said make it that, or did it happen before him?

I think we'd have to ask an art major about that! From what little I know, most artists tended to resist labels, except for political/philosophical purposes, and it was art historians or critics who put labels on "schools" of art.

By Said's day, I think "Orientalism" was regarded as an old-fashioned word as we don't see it used much after the 1940s or so. By the mid-1960s, much of the Western world was doing a lot more questioning of the whole white/Western/male/Protestant supremacy thing. The French Indochine War, the Vietnam War, the Six-Day War, all contributed to challenge and discussion about the "West's" presence and impact on the "East."

So we can certainly say that Said's book, critical of what he called "Orientalism," was well-timed. It came out in 1978, and he seemed like the perfect rallying point and spokesman against "Western imperialism" and "Zionism," being a Western-educated man of direct Arab heritage who was very, very intelligent, articulate and charming.

But I agree with the scholar Robert Irwin in his "Dangerous Knowledge: Orientalism and Its Discontents." Said's book was as full of distortions, deliberate omissions, errors and biases as the works of the "Orientalists" he railed against. That doesn't mean there wasn't some truth to some of his claims. But it should not have been enough to justify a whole new standard of political correctness in academia and politics for decades.

(I'm gonna say right now that what I've stated is my opinion, based on facts held to the best journalistic/academic standards I know. I won't get into any political discussions here.)

Thanks for the book recommendation and for your clear-headed (as always) comments on appropriation. When you say "Pretending that something is completely of a certain culture when only some elements have been borrowed from it and it's being reinterpreted in a manner that's outside that culture-- that's appropriation" it makes me wonder whether you consider it appropriate that American styles such as AmCab be known by a name that specifically draws a distinction between them and Raks Sharki. And of course whether you see the name "belly dance" as an umbrella term suitable for both.

Thanks, Cathy

Well, thanks yerself, Cathy!

Oh, gosh, what I consider "suitable" is letting "belly dance" be regarded as the bit of antique American slang that it is, just for general convenience -- kinda problematic and hardly academic, considering that it's an inaccurate term as much as the older French "danse du ventre" that it is derived from, 'cause the focus ain't our bellies.

So-called "AmCab" style derives directly from raqs sharqi, oryantal danzi and tchiftetelli -- more or less in different proportions as taught in the classic oral tradition by immigrants, children of immigrants, imported dancers and musicians of the older styles' mother countries.

This may be adaptation, but it ain't appropriation. It was something freely taught and adapted to some degree to personal style -- another small twist on the fusion that is true of each of the older styles.

This is the testimony of folks who were THERE, some of whom are still living -- Morocco, Dahlena, the music impresario Eddie "The Sheik" Kochak, etc. This is also the testimony we have written down from folks who were there but no longer with us, such as Serena Wilson.

As no one, so far, has shown classic "AmCab" didn't derive from the Turkish/Greek/ME dancers/musicians who taught the Americans -- I'd say if we can lump the older styles under "belly dancing," we sure as God-made-yellow-duckies can call "AmCab" "belly dance."

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance appropriation, etc.

Dear Forum Members,
First, the dance does indeed take place in the "belly",as anyone who is doing the movements properly for authentic dance can attest to. The abdominal muscles are the main reason why the dance looks the way it does. They help to keep all other movements internalized or to expand and contract movement, and in general are the basic control mechanism for the over all look and physical feel of the dance.
Secondly, American styles may derive a small part of movement "directly" from the Turkish, Lebanese and Egyptian styles, but certainly this basic abdominal control is often missing, along with the cultural spirit necessary for the dance to be referred to as "belly dance" by people all over the world, who are actually ]referring to the dances of Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey. this is not to mention that the same movements can be found in many dances and the dance itself is something that goes beyond movement. All one has to do is ask anyone on the street and they will see what the answer is, in referring to the origins of this dance. They never say Nebraska, or New York or Los Angeles or any other American place. It is only some dancers and Eddie the Sheik, who has his own agenda, that say it is an American dance or give too much credit to the idea that the dance was so very heavily influenced by the West. ( In fact I just saw Morocco, in another list, dispel the myth that the bra/best costume was taken from Hollywood movies) I want to see anyone approach an Arab and ask how to say Raqs Sharghi in English. They may give you the literal translation. but they also make it clear the dance is called "belly dance" in English.
As for Edward Said, the man was brilliant and brought to attention the long vilification process that allowed Americans and Europeans to believe it was fine to take lands away from one group of people to give to another, to print outlandish things in respected magazines like National Geographic and to take other actions that brainwashed a nation to think in terms of the Arab as "Other". His claims were actually not outrageous enough, considering the degree to which westerners have appropriated the resources of Arab countries. The 1970s oil issue is an example that can also be seen from two points of view, but Zaki Yamani said it best when he called attention to the fact that the oil belongs to the Arabs in the first place and they they were not subject to having to acceot pittances for their product while western oil profiteers got wealthy. It is so easy for some to be critical of Said, without taking into to account the whole picture that he was seeing. He did not look at art alone as the main issue of Orientalism, but looked instead at a much larger and on-going picture. to malign Said is prejudiced is very short sighted.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Kharmine]

Knew I had this somewhere in way too many bookmarks! I was trying to find a terrific article on this subject, but the one I had in mind is now defunct on the Internet so it took me a bit to search out another.

For anyone interested in what Edward Said had to say and why, and what are some of the objections to his work today, here's one article that talks about it. It's long, but then you can't skim this subject given the impact Said's book has had.

I think it's especially interesting in talking about how the book influenced even how "Orientalist" art is presented, the paintings and even Verdi's "Aida."

http://newcriterion.com:81/archive/17/jan99/said.htm

I don't think the "Orientalism" debate is going to go away, but I hope with that with more acceptance for other points of view based on better scholarship it will be useful and actually help to broaden understanding. At any rate, our own personal understanding starts with knowledge, patience, and an open mind.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Edwards Said and Orientalsim

Dear Forum members,
An even better way to see what Edward Said had to say and why, is to read his lectures, his books and his own words, rather than to take the approach of listening to what other people have to say about him. A very good place to start is his lecture in toronto in 1993,on Culture and Imperialism. Let him speak for himself rather than listen to his nay sayers, or for that matter, his supporters. If you Google him, you can find excerpts form his books, speeches, etc, and read him for yourself. You can also read a biography and find out how he knew what he knew.
His view of Orientalism was only partly about art. It encompassed the whole fabric of colonialism and its effects on the societies that were exploited during empire building activities, as well as its effects on the empire builders. This man was a brilliant and far sighted thinker.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

I'd say if we can lump the older styles under "belly dancing," we sure as God-made-yellow-duckies can call "AmCab" "belly dance."

This AmCab rubber duckie thanks you most sincerely for your vote of inclusion.

 

[Kharmine]

This AmCab rubber duckie thanks you most sincerely for your vote of inclusion.

Yer welcome. Not that "AmCab" needs anything to be included.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Belly dance

At least "American Cabaret", or "American Oriental" does not give an uneducated audience a false impression. That's really what my definition of the term is all about. Just because some dancers know the difference does not mean that the average guy on the sreet does.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Kharmine]

Yer welcome. Not that "AmCab" needs anything to be included.

Had to come back from my self-imposed weekly hibernation briefly because I realized there still remains the question about whether I regard so-called "AmCab" in particular as an example of people practicing "orientalism." (Did I get that right, cathy?)

Anyway, I hope this post will encourage people to look up references and sources and answer the question for themselves, because no one should just take other's opinions secondhand, unless they can verify them and know more about the people who voiced 'em.

(There are always people I ignore on this forum because they have proven to be unreasonable and not worth paying attention to -- anyone else who has questions or wants to raise a contradictory issue, hey, fine by me!, I'll try to be helpful. I don't have all the answers. These are only the facts I know, dug up and studied according to the best academic/journalistic standards I was trained by.)

Some time in the 1970s when an American dancer wanted to claim that her own emerging style was more "authentic," she used the label "Cabaret" for the American style usually danced in restaurants and nightclubs by American performers who had learned from a variety of Turkish/Greek/ME dancers and musicians. The label has more or less stuck.

Up to then, it was all just "belly dance" -- an old American slang term used not only by the ignorant general masses who might not know the differences, but also (starting in the 1950s) by those in the ethnic communities where the early American pioneers sought teaching, the communities that really knew what was, in English, "Oriental dance."

That teaching was freely given, and adapted as sincerely and carefully as those Americans could make it, who then went on to refine their studies and even go abroad eventually to study it in context. That is not appropriation.

The people who learned and taught and shared what they knew were not trying to become -- or pass themselves off -- as people of a certain ethnic culture (some of them actually already were of the contributing ethnic cultures, such as Eddie Kochak). They loved the art form and everything about it and wanted to learn and share it for its own sake.

Is an art form of mixed Oriental heritage (we know raqs sharqi and its offshoots are fusions of traditional folk dances from various regions with some, but not insignificant, Western influence) considered an "oriental" subject? Does it matter? What we do know is that the intent was not to co-opt or distort and then misrepresent, whatever other people did with it later.

We have that as testimony by those who were there -- people like Morocco, Dahlena, the late Serena Wilson and musicians who fostered belly dance in the U.S. such as the first-generation Arab-American musician and impresario Eddie Kochak.

These folks are all honorable, well-respected people, btw. They were not only early pioneers in belly dance teaching, they became credible historians of the art form and related issues. Kochak, for instance, who came up with a whole string of records for Western belly dancers to perform to in the 1970s, remains today a union rep for hundreds of Turkish/Greek/ME/Armenian etc. dancers and musicians in the U.S., native and foreign-born.

Kochak has been honored many times for his representation of, and contributions, to the Middle East community in the U.S. A person of his caliber does not get lauded and sought out well into his 80s for merely looking out for his own interests. (When he traveled in the Middle East with his longtime collaborator, Hakkai Obadia, they were honored and lauded there, too. Which should say something about how their Westernized renditions of traditional music were regarded in their ancestral countries.)

Likewise, Morocco, Dahlena, the late Serena Wilson -- all have shared their extraordinary pioneering experiences generously and, as far as anyone can tell, honestly. They, too, have been honored and recognized for their expertise and many significant contributions. They all brought belly dancing to Americans who otherwise would not have had access to the art. I haven't found anything that seriously stains their characters, either.

Which is why I tend to believe these folks when they talk about what is, or is not, "belly dance" (even when they use another term, as does Morocco). And if they say the so-called AmCab/American Oriental/Restaurant style is "belly dance," and speak about what is and is not "appropriation," I think they can be believed.

They are the real experts in this argument.

So, yes, personally, I consider the so-called "AmCab" style of belly dance to be a form of "orientalism," but only in the word's most original, positive sense. I do not accept that "orientalism" is necessarily a dirty word -- it should be seen in its actual historical context, not just a distorted political lens.

OK, I'm off my soap box and will go back to my regularly scheduled program. Y'all have fun, now and talk amongst yerselves!