Something all men need to understand

[M'Lady Caija]

Actually, I'm not "dark"!

You have dark hair and beard, that count as dark in Sweden

But if you'd carry a gun, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but if I need a gun to feel safe there's something extremely wrong with our world.

I Belive that we need to take care of our younglings. Teach them good values, codes of chivalry and compassion for other human beings. It doesn't matter if it's a you girl or a boy... I'm horrified by the fact that children in the age of 4-5 getting their parents to buy them sexy bikinis or sexy clothing, that children at daycare centers calls eachother "whore" "cunt" "cocksucker" "gay" etc. AT DAYCARE!

I'm 27 and I think that my generation were assholes, but when growing up to see todays younglings at 13-15 years of age being such assholes and bitches.... gee... It makes me not wanna have any kids even if that's one of my biggest wishes.

The world was cruel when I grew up, and the world has not become any nicer... When I got in fights in school we were sent to the principals office, we got a severe yelling and warnings. Today if you get in a fight in a swedish school the cops are called in and it goes to court. Teachers in Sweden are no longer allowed to touch the kids even if they're about to hurt another kid. Then the kids call the teachers intervention for child abuse...

sometimes I think Sweden shot herself in her foot being so darn "lagom" and set up examples of good codes for other countries... you should not hit children, but a good spanking now and then to teach good behaviour should still be allowed.... we're so afraid of being called child abusers here in Sweden and the children know their rights. I've heard kids telling their parents "go on, hit me then, then I tell the police and then I dont have to live with you anylonger!"

This is a difficult matter. I think a lot of todays younglings should have a really good round with the flat of a hairbrush to learn that things actually DO have consequenses. Today bad behaviour is sanctioned by the fact that you're no allowed to spank kids (at least here in sweden)

But then there's the other side of the coin as well, if you get to much spanking you turn out to be some really weird psychopath starting to serialkill and eat your dead victims toenails or something....

 

[Ariadne]

Actually, I'm not "dark"!

But reading other posts from my dance sisters here is an awakening - I had no idea women had it that bad.

If I were in a situation that put me at this kind of risk on even an occasional basis, I'd get a CCW permit, and learn how to shoot VERY well and VERY fast.

If I couldn't get a CCW permit, I'd still carry - "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

I was *so* very glad when I grew up and left the "animals" our schools are full of, behind. Seems like women have to contend with animals their entire lives - I had no idea.

I am VERY shocked, and ashamed of my gender.

But it's not just men Zorba. I have actually been harassed far worse by groups of women then I ever have been by men and there have been some bad situations there too. It's not about being a woman it's about being vulnerable in a society that has allowed that kind of behavior to go unpunished and uncommented.

 

[M'Lady Caija]

But it's not just men Zorba. I have actually been harassed far worse by groups of women then I ever have been by men and there have been some bad situations there too. It's not about being a woman it's about being vulnerable in a society that has allowed that kind of behavior to go unpunished and uncommented.

And as I said before, even Men get in trouble like this. Being harassed by other men, or by women (or in most cases packs of she-devils)

 

[Amulya]

Yes I agree there is a lot to do with upbringing. Where I live it isn't that bad, kids are pretty polite and friendly, but where I came from, Holland, it was a different matter.... Very very rude kids. Not my regular teen students, they were angels of course! But I had to teach some workshops at primary schools in Holland and I was so shocked I could not believe what was wrong with the kids. Not just the boys, the girls just as bad.

One example that really shocked me was where a couple of 8 to 10 year old Moroccan descent girls who started dancing like Cristina Aguilera in that video where she is a stripper or something, so they were doing really gross movements. And they did that while I was teaching and in front of the boys (the belly dance workshop was mixed) I am pretty sure their parents would have been mortified (Dutch Moroccans are often very traditional)
Another class had kids that were yelling things at each other I had never heard of at that age. Just gross sexual stuff. Plus just not listening to their teachers, being loud, running around.

I think this comes from the 'attachment parenting' and similar upbringing styles where kids are allowed everything, are always given compliments, are never told off, are the centre of their parents world etc. that kind of upbringing makes kids very selfish.

 

[mahsati_janan]

I don't think it's just luck. Being polite goes a long way to diffusing potentially tense situations. The "usual routine" in the story of responding "loudly and firmly that I wanted to be left alone" can do exactly the opposite. It's treating anyone who talks to you as guilty beforehand and no one likes that especially if they really are jerks.

I am sure that you do not mean it this way, but this statement is very victim-blaming. Being polite is always a good tactic, but just because you haven't experienced violent rage from people when you have been polite doesn't mean others have not had that experience. I once had to take a friend to the hospital after she politely, gently, quietly, and with a smile told a guy at a bar that she was not interested. Manners are great, but they can't protect you from dangerous people.

 

[Ariadne]

I am sure that you do not mean it this way, but this statement is very victim-blaming.

Only if you ignore everything else I said. Being polite isn't just a good tactic it can avoid a great deal of conflict and confrontation. It's simply about diffusing a potential situation rather then increasing it. Notice I said it doesn't work "all the time".

"No technique works all the time...
... It doesn't always work..."​

It has nothing to do with whether or not these individuals are responsible for their behavior (of course they are) but with taking responsibility for our own actions as well. (I sound like Tarik now don't I?)

Manners are great, but they can't protect you from dangerous people.

Not if they have decided to hurt you, no. It's when they haven't already decided that your behavior can have an impact. If you thought I was implying that what happened to you was your fault then I apologize. That was not my intent. Rather I was trying to build on what I felt was a good post by you. I thought I had posted something but I just went back and read it and it's implied but not stated. That is that there are people, "ones", who need no reason to act badly and don't care about rules or anything else. They exist but they really are the exception not the rule. I just don't agree with treating everyone like they are are the rule just because they might be one of the exceptions.

 

[Zorba]

You have dark hair and beard, that count as dark in Sweden

But if you'd carry a gun, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but if I need a gun to feel safe there's something extremely wrong with our world.

There is indeed. But - there has always been much wrong with the world. Not being allowed to defend oneself against animals just makes it worse - far worse.

Teachers in Sweden are no longer allowed to touch the kids even if they're about to hurt another kid. Then the kids call the teachers intervention for child abuse...

I could write a rant about this that would last all day and all nite - this kind of politically correct BS is going on in the US too. Kids need the occasional beating - spare the rod, spoil the child. The above quote is ample evidence.

 

[Zorba]

And as I said before, even Men get in trouble like this. Being harassed by other men, or by women (or in most cases packs of she-devils)

Its usually other MEN. Men with small minds and smooth brains.

I have been harassed by what I call "Feral Women", but nothing where I felt my safety was at stake.

Men usually don't want to tangle with me, 'cause I'm so big I guess. Maybe they figure that a guy my size, that looks like I do, doesn't give two ****s about very much and they'd be better off not trying anything. *shrug* I dunno - human psychology is an interesting thing...

 

[Janene Aliza]

One example that really shocked me was where a couple of 8 to 10 year old Moroccan descent girls who started dancing like Cristina Aguilera in that video where she is a stripper or something, so they were doing really gross movements. And they did that while I was teaching and in front of the boys (the belly dance workshop was mixed) I am pretty sure their parents would have been mortified (Dutch Moroccans are often very traditional)

think this comes from the 'attachment parenting' and similar upbringing styles where kids are allowed everything, are always given compliments, are never told off, are the centre of their parents world etc. that kind of upbringing makes kids very selfish.

If the parents are "traditional" and would not allow their kids to behave that way (so maybe the kids don't act out in front of Mom and Dad, just when at school/around their peers), why does it seem that more kids behave this way than in previous generations? Maybe because there's more of a disconnect between school and parents -- the parents are not informed if their kid misbehaves unless it results in detention/suspension or other "extreme" punishment? :think:

 

[BigJim]

I'd like to add a few comments to this complex discussion.

Part of the problem is that society has drifted away from the "Rules of Good Behavior". As a child of the 50's I was taught that you always treated women with respect, that you held the door for them,offered them your seat on the bus etc. Being polite to people,especially anyone older than you was expected and if you got out of line the paddle did come out...

Another factor is the lack of accountability. In larger populated areas there is a sense of anonimity which leads to "I can do anything I want to and get away with it". Verbal abuse, groping someone,having a menacing demeanor are all by-products.

I am very fortunate to live in a small town...People are accountable for their actions,because everybody knows one another or is related to one another, and if they do something bad (or good) the word gets out pretty fast.
Harassment of women is not tolerated. If situations do arise (very very rare)they get sorted out one way or the other quickly.

I am saddened by the fear and uncertainty that many of the Forum members feel as part of their daily lives.How to fix this is beyond me but it will take a major shift in thinking by the majority of the population to make inroads.

 

[Zorba]

I'd like to add a few comments to this complex discussion.

Part of the problem is that society has drifted away from the "Rules of Good Behavior". As a child of the 50's I was taught that you always treated women with respect, that you held the door for them,offered them your seat on the bus etc. Being polite to people,especially anyone older than you was expected and if you got out of line the paddle did come out...

Another factor is the lack of accountability. In larger populated areas there is a sense of anonimity which leads to "I can do anything I want to and get away with it". Verbal abuse, groping someone,having a menacing demeanor are all by-products.

I am very fortunate to live in a small town...People are accountable for their actions,because everybody knows one another or is related to one another, and if they do something bad (or good) the word gets out pretty fast.
Harassment of women is not tolerated. If situations do arise (very very rare)they get sorted out one way or the other quickly.

I am saddened by the fear and uncertainty that many of the Forum members feel as part of their daily lives.How to fix this is beyond me but it will take a major shift in thinking by the majority of the population to make inroads.

Yep, yes, and absolutely!

 

[Farasha Hanem]

I'd like to add a few comments to this complex discussion.

Part of the problem is that society has drifted away from the "Rules of Good Behavior". As a child of the 50's I was taught that you always treated women with respect, that you held the door for them,offered them your seat on the bus etc. Being polite to people,especially anyone older than you was expected and if you got out of line the paddle did come out...

Another factor is the lack of accountability. In larger populated areas there is a sense of anonimity which leads to "I can do anything I want to and get away with it". Verbal abuse, groping someone,having a menacing demeanor are all by-products.

I am very fortunate to live in a small town...People are accountable for their actions,because everybody knows one another or is related to one another, and if they do something bad (or good) the word gets out pretty fast.
Harassment of women is not tolerated. If situations do arise (very very rare)they get sorted out one way or the other quickly.

I am saddened by the fear and uncertainty that many of the Forum members feel as part of their daily lives.How to fix this is beyond me but it will take a major shift in thinking by the majority of the population to make inroads.

:clap::clap::clap:

By the way, did someone mention retail? I work at Wal-Mart, and I see rudeness every day, and it's not just the younger folks. More times than not, I get more respect out of younger people than I do those around my age or older (and I'm 51). How can we teach our children to respect others and hold life sacred when the adults run around with a selfish, entitled atitude? How can young men learn to be good, kind, thoughtful, and respectful when they see those older than themselves "do what they want to do," without a care or thought to other people? Like I said, I see this attitude every day at work, and it makes me FROTHING MAD because I know my grandparents would roll over in their graves if they could see the way people behave today! This isn't just a "man thing," it's an EVERYBODY thing!!! I've had customers yell at me for the STUPIDEST things ever, and it just....ARRRRRRRRRRGH, I need to cool my jets for awhile, I'm getting on my emotional soap box here!

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...getting worked-up and off-topic...

 

[Amulya]

Farasha, I can't believe how rude people can be towards people in shops, restaurants etc. it's really weird how that brings out people's rudeness

 

[Ariadne]

Farasha Wal-mart is it's own special hell isn't it?

I am saddened by the fear and uncertainty that many of the Forum members feel as part of their daily lives.How to fix this is beyond me but it will take a major shift in thinking by the majority of the population to make inroads.

It really would. As you said though a lot of it depends on where you live. As much as I loved living in a metropolitan area I did not love dealing with sitches like that. Enough so that my heart didn't break when an opportunity to move somewhere kinder came along. I think you've nailed it when you mention a lack of accountability. There is a lot less anonymity then there used to be thanks to the internet. Maybe eventually we'll start seeing some results from that but if it's not accompanied by some type of feeling of shame I doubt it.

 

[da Sage]

Might be different for different locations but I've no recollection of the book flip ever being taken as an invitation to further conversation. Or perhaps I was actually so engrossed in the book that post-flip I didn't notice anything the people doing the interacting got up to.

I do think that the different location is key - every city/town is different. Also, the people involved can make a difference. I haven't had much trouble on public transportation in the past, but I've noticed in the past few years that very often I see men harassing black women on the buses and on the street. It's not just cat-calls, it's very vile and violent language, and often they follow the women.

I don't remember seeing this kind of aggression in my city five years ago, even though I took the bus frequently. Now I see it every time I go downtown. I've only been a target once, but black women who pass by these men are likely to get the full treatment.

ETA: I know this post refers to race, and that's to point out that people are often subject to different treatment based on their appearance, rather than their actions. The vast majority of men whom I see on the street and on public transport either don't interact with others or are perfectly polite. But this very aggressive public behavior is a trend that I've only noticed recently where I live. If I were a black woman, I'd be afraid to go downtown alone or ride the bus in my current city.

 

[da Sage]

On the up side, I haven't been harassed on the street for being a "dyke"*** in about 15 years now (same city). It used to happen all the time.

***I'm just quoting the word used by my harassers...no hate speech intended.

 

[khanjar]

About eighteen years back when I was in the military I had to cross through the typing pool and from that experience I got a very good insight into what it must be like for women surrounded by men and it did make me think, not that I was a pest, I was too shy, but it further hindered my approaches until it was a woman chose me a few years later. Of course I know what my problem is now, it's the ASD and it drove my ex nuts and so it is still the same, but it has been described as emotionally a child in an adults body and that I am inclined to agree with.

But women, most of my friends are women, they are friends, others say I have just got to be sexually attracted and be after something to be friends with women and I say no, not really, they are friends, but I tend to be able to understand more with women than I do men and that because I don't consider myself a typical male, in fact what is typical male a lot of it appalls me and I have no wish to be it.

It was at a belly dance night out on the town it was said after I was very welcome, but it was interesting that normally the gang would be descended upon by various males through the night, even groups of males, but not that night as it appeared me being there kept them away, so the evening was surprisingly relaxed and more enjoyable which again is more thought material, the crap women must go through just going out.

When I meet a woman for the first time like Zorba, my eyes connect with jewellery and often it is the jewellery that attracts me, as sometimes I make jewellery then to me naturally I will be attracted to it, usually working out how it was made in my head and conversation starters are usually about it and that is about as far as it gets as I have been accused of not taking interest in the past when signals were being put out, but that's the ASD, it 's not that I am not attracted, it is that I don't understand the signals and what response there should be.

So women are safe with me, some come to find that out for themselves but others are wary and I do understand why, and I do not blame them.

But I agree men need educating, but how to do it is a problem, but I suspect it is already happening with the young as a lot of men are becoming somewhat metrosexual, but there are other males of all age groups who do not adhere to the boorish sex crazy pig that some men can be, not all men are the same, but given the pigs well, like all minorities that cause a problem, they destroy much for everyone else, because say the town for example on the weekend, of the males out on the town, how many aren't.

 

[Aniseteph]

... the boorish sex crazy pig that some men can be...

Sexual attraction might make you smile at someone or say hi and maybe try to open a conversation... but seriously, shouting a remark about someone's anatomy or bothering someone who is clearly sending out "please *** off and leave me alone" signals - does that ever work? (maybe in their knuckle-dragging circles that DOES count as courtship behaviour. Wow).

I don't believe sexual attraction has that much to do with it - most of the time it's bullying. They do it to make other people feel uncomfortable and themselves feel powerful; puffing up their pathetic little egos is more important to them than other people's feelings.

 

[M'Lady Caija]

I don't believe sexual attraction has that much to do with it - most of the time it's bullying. They do it to make other people feel uncomfortable and themselves feel powerful; puffing up their pathetic little egos is more important to them than other people's feelings.

hear! hear!

 

[Zorba]

:clap::clap::clap:

By the way, did someone mention retail? I work at Wal-Mart, and I see rudeness every day, and it's not just the younger folks. More times than not, I get more respect out of younger people than I do those around my age or older (and I'm 51). How can we teach our children to respect others and hold life sacred when the adults run around with a selfish, entitled atitude? How can young men learn to be good, kind, thoughtful, and respectful when they see those older than themselves "do what they want to do," without a care or thought to other people? Like I said, I see this attitude every day at work, and it makes me FROTHING MAD because I know my grandparents would roll over in their graves if they could see the way people behave today! This isn't just a "man thing," it's an EVERYBODY thing!!! I've had customers yell at me for the STUPIDEST things ever, and it just....ARRRRRRRRRRGH, I need to cool my jets for awhile, I'm getting on my emotional soap box here!

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...getting worked-up and off-topic...

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