khanjar
New member
Which might throw some light on this dance we love so much in regards to the origin of the movement ;
Egyptians are Egyptians, not Arabs - YouTube
Egyptians are Egyptians, not Arabs - YouTube
Interesting video....
- Thread starter khanjar
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khanjar
New member
Interesting. Moreso, the heated debate in the comments.
I tend to ignore comments on youtube videos because it takes all sorts including the prejudiced, uneducated and downright nasty in society that use such locations as a stone to grind their axes.
khanjar
New member
Very interesting - also the comments as Darshiva said. Maybe we should get MissNaa to take a look and give us or her dads opinion on the video
~Mosaic
Yes, I agree and particularly so given the recent debate on Cultural appropriation, we that do this thing do need to understand exactly what we do.
But aside from that the more we understand about the people, the more we can respect who they are and what they have given us that brings so much joy to our lives for one thing is certain of the west, is that really we are clueless as towards other cultures and we do need to hear it from those of other cultures if it is we wish not to adopt the imperialistic view that hurts so many.
My interest in this video, which was found through surfing youtube looking for zill instruction strangely, is what Tarik has always been on about, Belly Dance is largely of African origin and this video exemplifies that to me through the fact it is stated that Egyptians are more African than they are Arabian and so with the African comes the culture and with that the dancing.
Now obviously there are other influences from other regions that is natural through I believe the various empires that conquered the regions in antiquity, but the core of this dance is African through Egyptian.
But Miss Naa, if you are about I welcome your critical eye.
SeeJaneDance
New member
This makes me think of an exchange I had with my husband. My instructor uses "Middle Eastern" and "Egyptian" somewhat interchangeably when speaking of dance. When I did this at home, talking to him, he couldn't comprehend what I was saying. His only statement: "Egypt isn't in the Middle East, it's in Africa." He's wrong. Well, he's right and he's wrong. Egypt is in Africa. But it's also considered part of the "Middle East" inasmuch as that's a designation of anything. I guess my point is that Egypt, and specifically Cairo, is far, far closer geographically to the other Mediterranean countries that influence and define what we know as "belly dance" than to Sub-Saharan Africa. So I'm really interested in what an Egyptian person thinks about this in the context of dance. I'm also sort of interested in whether or not belly dance as we know it extends into Libya and Sudan.
khanjar
New member
Yes, confusing isn't it, where people from all over the world and indeed in the countries concerned view themselves in the world, and Egypt, is Egypt in the Middle East or is it in Africa, who are the Egyptians, are they Africans or are they Arabs.
Perhaps it is we in the west like to label and quantify in order to understand anything where people unconcerned with the rest of the world call themselves what they will, which could be local terminology, national terminology, regional terminology or even religious.
Undoubtedly it all boils down to politics, but people themselves need to belong and so many seek what they are in relation to everything else.
And people like us looking from afar wish to show respect to cultures we are interested in.
But belly dance, recently I have taken to calling it Egyptian Folk dance because that is what my teacher teaches mostly, where her first love is beledi, the raw, rough around the edges just have fun boogeying to good music and feel what you dance to.
To others what I do is folk dancing, if they are that interested they will inquire more.
Perhaps it is we in the west like to label and quantify in order to understand anything where people unconcerned with the rest of the world call themselves what they will, which could be local terminology, national terminology, regional terminology or even religious.
Undoubtedly it all boils down to politics, but people themselves need to belong and so many seek what they are in relation to everything else.
And people like us looking from afar wish to show respect to cultures we are interested in.
But belly dance, recently I have taken to calling it Egyptian Folk dance because that is what my teacher teaches mostly, where her first love is beledi, the raw, rough around the edges just have fun boogeying to good music and feel what you dance to.
To others what I do is folk dancing, if they are that interested they will inquire more.
Darshiva
Moderator
Ariadne, did you actually read any history before you posted that? Seriously? Because wow, I would love to know your sources on that one, it conflicts with every piece of Egyptology I've ever read. Obviously you have some info that's completely groundbreaking and never before heard of. Share it!
Ariadne
Well-known member
I've done a lot of reading on the subject pre-AD. Egypt was one of the BIG powerhouses for a great deal of it. Even when conquered by other countries from the north (Hysos, Greek, etc) Egypt always kept it's identity as Egyptian and tended to turn anyone who moved in into Egyptians as well rather then the other way around. They also purged the Hyksos from Egypt when they kicked them out from a strong feeling of nationalism. Even when they themselves had not conquered the Levant area they still had HUGE political clout such that it used to be that an educated man from there (and Mesopotamian) would be expected to speak and read Egyptian. When you then add into the on again off again relationship between lower and upper Egypt why wouldn't there be DNA moving into Egypt regularly? Especially with the regular migrations through Egypt to the Arabian Peninsula?
While I was being rather tongue in cheek in my response I just don't see why there being less Arab DNA then African DNA would actually be a shock to anyone considering that the Arab invasion of North Africa is a rather recent event in the course of history. It makes no difference to the actual culture there. Egypt always has been and always will be Egyptian. It's culturally unique and proud of it as they should be.
While I was being rather tongue in cheek in my response I just don't see why there being less Arab DNA then African DNA would actually be a shock to anyone considering that the Arab invasion of North Africa is a rather recent event in the course of history. It makes no difference to the actual culture there. Egypt always has been and always will be Egyptian. It's culturally unique and proud of it as they should be.
Duvet
Member
I don't think DNA analysis can tell us much about a modern person's cultural history, and so don't see how this fits in with talking about dance origins.
The video makes the argument that the most 'Egyptian' of Egyptians are the Copts, because they don't marry outside the Copt community. So Copts are the closest to how an ancient Egyptian looked that you can get. But the Copts are a Christian community, the 'culture' of which comes from the Middle East, originating in a Jewish cult of the 1st Century AD. So the people might be geographically stable, but that has a limited bearing on discussing about where their culture comes from.
More importantly, before people start discussing this video, the information in it is misleading. It makes a distinction between 'African' and 'Arab', saying that Egyptians are not Arabs. However, the original Lucotte 2002 DNA study (which the video uses), whilst it does indeed show that the sample group was 72% 'African', the actual figures (rounded out) are 14% sub-Saharan Africa, 19% Ethiopian, and 39% Arab and Berber of North Africa. So the idea that the video presents, that 'black slavery' contributed more than 'Arabs' to the Y-Chromosome sample, is wrong. Put another spin on the figures, and over half of the sample could be called 'Arab' (7% were 'Near East Semitic', 7% were from the Near Eastern area, 39% were Arab and Berber mix).
The video is also wrong when it says that there is no Greek or Roman ancestry in Egyptians. The Lucotte DNA study itself suggests 5% were of possible Roman descent, and that the 7% Near Eastern Y-chromosome included possible Greek ancestry.
The Lucotte 2002 Report is here; http://ingiagzennay.free.fr/Lucotte.pdf
A nations ancestors usually come from a diverse background. DNA is fascinating for studying population migrations. The Lucotte study was only tracing the DNA signature from the Y-Chromosome, i.e. only tracing one line of (male) descent for each individual, which, when you think of the thousands and millions of ancestors we all have, might skew the resulting conclusions.
The video makes the argument that the most 'Egyptian' of Egyptians are the Copts, because they don't marry outside the Copt community. So Copts are the closest to how an ancient Egyptian looked that you can get. But the Copts are a Christian community, the 'culture' of which comes from the Middle East, originating in a Jewish cult of the 1st Century AD. So the people might be geographically stable, but that has a limited bearing on discussing about where their culture comes from.
More importantly, before people start discussing this video, the information in it is misleading. It makes a distinction between 'African' and 'Arab', saying that Egyptians are not Arabs. However, the original Lucotte 2002 DNA study (which the video uses), whilst it does indeed show that the sample group was 72% 'African', the actual figures (rounded out) are 14% sub-Saharan Africa, 19% Ethiopian, and 39% Arab and Berber of North Africa. So the idea that the video presents, that 'black slavery' contributed more than 'Arabs' to the Y-Chromosome sample, is wrong. Put another spin on the figures, and over half of the sample could be called 'Arab' (7% were 'Near East Semitic', 7% were from the Near Eastern area, 39% were Arab and Berber mix).
The video is also wrong when it says that there is no Greek or Roman ancestry in Egyptians. The Lucotte DNA study itself suggests 5% were of possible Roman descent, and that the 7% Near Eastern Y-chromosome included possible Greek ancestry.
The Lucotte 2002 Report is here; http://ingiagzennay.free.fr/Lucotte.pdf
A nations ancestors usually come from a diverse background. DNA is fascinating for studying population migrations. The Lucotte study was only tracing the DNA signature from the Y-Chromosome, i.e. only tracing one line of (male) descent for each individual, which, when you think of the thousands and millions of ancestors we all have, might skew the resulting conclusions.
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Aniseteph
New member
There are two aspects to the labelling and quantifying. Yes it's political if you are using your labels to try to control or manipulate, trying to take your labels into that culture. But it can also be just away to try to understand when you come up against things outside your own culture. I don't think that is necessarily a west vs east split.