Tucking and posture questions

[Ravenhairedbellydancer]

I have a couple of questions about pelvic posture. One is, am I imagining things or do dancers tuck less nowadays than they did in the 1950s. When I look at classic dancers like Nagwa or any other dancers of her time I see a great deal of tucking. They almost look like their pelvis is in front of them lol.The posture seems different from what I see today. Is it just the tuck or something else.....? When I look at a dancer like Didem Im seeing such a dramatically different carriage than "traditional" Is this just because her body type differs ( long and thing as opposed to more round and petite as old school dancers tended to be) or something else?

Also, I am quite a bit swaybacked. Im not interested in "correcting" this because its a nice curve in my back and I have a long torso and I think Id look weird with a flat lower back BUT I think it may make tucking harder for me. I feel sort of "exaggerated" in my tuck. Is this normal when getting used to it? Sometimes I forget completely to tuck and wonder why I look strange dancing. Then I get back to tucking and see how much Ive learned. Does a swayback mean I shouldnt dance because tucking is bad for me.......?

 

[Shanazel]

I can't answer any questions about swayback health- that's probably a doctor or physical therapist question. I still teach a tuck done in the old style. I don't know how you'd maintain proper posture without a decent tuck, or how you'd properly execute certain movements. Instead of an forward pelvic extension, what you may be seeing is a tendency for old style dancers to lean slightly backwards, especially if you are watching American Classic dancers.

(hey, Morrocco, didja see that? Are ya proud of me for not saying old style AmCab?)

 

[gisela]

Not sure, as I'm not a teacher and haven't been dancing that long to notice a difference in posture. Though, I have heard people discussing that the tuck used to be more pronounced. On youtube I've seen some newer dancers (great dancers) from america, maybe south america, who seem to dance with a swayback. It could just look that way, I don't know...

I think that comparing Nagwa with Didem is not a perfect example as they also come from different dance cultures. Maybe you have compared older turkish dancers with Didem and newer egyptians with Nagwa, and just not written it?

The egyptian teachers I have taken workshops with have all had much work with making people straighten their legs more and not tuck as much. I learnt "neutral erect" for posture and I try to go by that.

 

[eden eyes]

hey raven, i've got moderate lordosis as well, not as bad as some cases i've seen.

from what i've experienced, tucking feels really weird for me, mainly because i have to really really tuck in order for it to look somewhat straight. so my best solution is to really lift the chest and only slightly tuck to what eventually becomes a natural stance for me. however, with people who have this condition like you and i, you MUST do some amount of tucking and you MUST lift your chest or you could end up furthering the damage to your back by slipping a disc or straining against the dorsal nerve which can cause lower back, hamstring, glute, and calf pain, which is very bad considering all those muscles are essential to belly dance!

just practice staying in a LIFT and tuck posture until it becomes easier for you to do it automatically, trust me that day will come! but protection is Number 1 for your back. I suggest you don't do back bends until you can slowly work on them with your instructor and eventually slowly working on your own. It took me until over a year after my lower back surgery to even attempt backbends, and now i only do moderate ones and i know i will never to deep standing ones, it just won't *safely* happen.

hope all this info helped ! and remember, if something starts hurting like it shouldn't be and it won't stop hurting, do NOT NOT NOT put it off or ignore it! go see your doctor and if necessary, get an MRI done immediately and stop any activity that might have caused this pain.

 

[adiemus]

There is no evidence that lumbar lordosis increases your risk of back pain, nor that trying to change your lordosis increases your risk of back pain. Remember, unless there are neurological signs and symptoms (numbness, pins and needles, loss of motor control, lossof bowel or bladder control), you are unlikely to (a) be required to have surgery and (b) this means MRI or other investigations are are more likely than not to show 'incidental' findings that are irrelevant to your immediate pain problem.
Most acute low back pain goes away all by itself, provided you use good pain relief and get moving again!

Your back is actually very flexible and strong and designed for movement. You won't harm yourself by moving - you'll harm yourself much more by stopping doing things (even when they hurt) or by slamming into a solid surface. Normal movement is by far more helpful for healing your back pain than anything else. BTW this is my area of clinical and academic expertise, so I'll defend this vigorously!

I have lumbar lordosis also, and yes, lifting up from the midthoracic and working your lower abdominals to pull up and tilt your pelvis rather than tuck under will help reduce some of the lordosis. I also find that my quads are tighter than many other people, with my hamstrings slightly elongated and lengthened than others - the effect of this is that some of the forward hip movements, particularly twists and hip drops are more difficult for me than people without the lordosis. Stretching my quads so that my hip flexors are gradually lengthened has helped, but it's very difficult to maintain this so even after more than 18 months regular stretching and strengthening, I have trouble!

The other thing is, I think some of the 'classic' dancers do move differently - they're much more curvaceous, often wore girdles and other support things in everyday wear, and yes, they do carry their lower pelvis forther forward than is common today.

BTW I don't do deep backbends, not because they're harmful (they're not unless you twist while doing them), but because I don't have a lot of strength to come UP - and I could end up STUCK forever!!!

 

[Kashmir]

Also, I am quite a bit swaybacked. Im not interested in "correcting" this because its a nice curve in my back and I have a long torso and I think Id look weird with a flat lower back BUT I think it may make tucking harder for me. I feel sort of "exaggerated" in my tuck. Is this normal when getting used to it? Sometimes I forget completely to tuck and wonder why I look strange dancing. Then I get back to tucking and see how much Ive learned. Does a swayback mean I shouldnt dance because tucking is bad for me.......?

Okay - if you have a curve in your lower back that does not mean you have lordosis (what some people call "swayback"). Lordosis is an exaggerated curve. It is judged by the position of the boney bumps front and back on your pelvis (the optimal position for movement (a neutral pelvis) the anterior hip bone is slightly lower than the posterior superior iliac spine). A flat lower back is itself a posture fault - not something to be aimed at!!

Tucking - or more accurately achieving a neutral pelvis by lifting the lower abs - is not a one size fits all. It is a fix for a particular problem - a pelvis that is tilted forward which puts a lot of stress on the lower back and can significantly shorten your dance life.

That said, I did attend a workshop with Shareen el Safy in the 1990s in which she taught an exaggerated tuck to achieve some of teh Egyptian style moves (she suggested we walk around clenching a coin between our cheeks). Such extreme posture is, hopefully, no longer in fashion.

 

[Ravenhairedbellydancer]

Okay - if you have a curve in your lower back that does not mean you have lordosis (what some people call "swayback"). Lordosis is an exaggerated curve. It is judged by the position of the boney bumps front and back on your pelvis (the optimal position for movement (a neutral pelvis) the anterior hip bone is slightly lower than the posterior superior iliac spine). A flat lower back is itself a posture fault - not something to be aimed at!!

Tucking - or more accurately achieving a neutral pelvis by lifting the lower abs - is not a one size fits all. It is a fix for a particular problem - a pelvis that is tilted forward which puts a lot of stress on the lower back and can significantly shorten your dance life.

That said, I did attend a workshop with Shareen el Safy in the 1990s in which she taught an exaggerated tuck to achieve some of teh Egyptian style moves (she suggested we walk around clenching a coin between our cheeks). Such extreme posture is, hopefully, no longer in fashion.

I definitely have a swayback, the curve is exaggerated. I have a "duck back" lol Its quite noticeable. I have a big butt to boot . A boyfriend once told me that he could rest a glass there lol.

This scares me. Do u mean forcing my lordotic spine into a straightened position can be damaging? I wonder if Im passing my limit when Im tucking...

 

[adiemus]

My research indicates you will NOT harm yourself if you try to change your posture - the very worst it can do is be temporarily hurt! You muscles won't be used to the position so they'll grumble and groan. The hardest part is that it's very difficult to change a posture that you've had probably since you were a child. So it's probable you won't remember all of the time and it'll return to 'normal' in the meantime.

I disagree with Kashmir in terms of doing any harm at all by trying to change your posture. There is no scientific evidence to support the idea that trying to alter 'core stability' which is what working your lower abs is part of, significantly impacts on low back pain at all. Back pain itself does NOT mean you've done harm to yourself, it's more like a headache of the back than having a head injury!

As I said above, your spine is not only very strong, it's very flexible. Yes, you can have a painful back, but it does not mean it is injured, and it doesn't mean you have to stop dancing. I'm a good example of someone who has a chronic pain problem, and it doesn't stop me from dancing.

Relax, tuck if you want to, and it's giving you the look you want. It won't harm you, but it'll be difficult to achieve long-term results, and it may hurt a bit as muscles learn to do this consistently.

btw if you want information on back pain, and other chronic pains, my blog has a lot of information, written for health professionals. I'm not selling anything! This is my academic and clinical work, so I can be quite straightup!
HealthSkills Weblog

 

[AlisonBellyDance]

Be careful!

I also have a sway back but I noticed that if I didn't tilt my pelvis forward when I danced, my lower back began to hurt from putting unnecessary pressure where my back curved. Also, when your pelvis is tilted forward, you will have a greater range of motion. (Give it a try!) It does feel really really odd when you first start, but it will be worth it. My back is straighter and stronger because of it and I now stand taller, which is something that other people have noticed. As with every style of dance, posture is very important and I cannot stress how important the bent knee/tilted pelvis posture is for my beginner students. I, of course, am not a doctor but I stand by this posture for my health and the health of my students.

 

[adiemus]

erm....tilting your pelvis forward usually means pushing your symphysis pubis back while the iliac crests come forward (rotating around the head of femur), this is the exact opposite of the usual advice to tilt the pelvis back - bringing the symphysis pubis foward by contracting the lower abdominals and associated musculature, and allowing the iliac crests to come back. You'll certainly have more range of movement with your knees 'soft' or slightly flexed, but not if you tilt your pelvis forward!

With every new set of movements, your body will probably complain a bit. Some of us have very sensitive nervous systems (eg those of us with fibromyalgia or other chronic pain conditions), and it might take a while for the pain to settle - but be reassured, you're not putting 'extra pressure on your back' even if you retain your lordosis, you'll only feel sore. Pain in the back does not inevitably mean you've done yourself an injury! Your back cannot be harmed by doing the sort of movements carried out in bellydance - except where you twist and flex at the same time, or when you do a really vigorous Turkish drop - and even then the majority of the movement actually comes from hips and knees!

 

[AlisonBellyDance]

erm....tilting your pelvis forward usually means pushing your symphysis pubis back while the iliac crests come forward (rotating around the head of femur), this is the exact opposite of the usual advice to tilt the pelvis back - bringing the symphysis pubis foward by contracting the lower abdominals and associated musculature, and allowing the iliac crests to come back. You'll certainly have more range of movement with your knees 'soft' or slightly flexed, but not if you tilt your pelvis forward!

With every new set of movements, your body will probably complain a bit. Some of us have very sensitive nervous systems (eg those of us with fibromyalgia or other chronic pain conditions), and it might take a while for the pain to settle - but be reassured, you're not putting 'extra pressure on your back' even if you retain your lordosis, you'll only feel sore. Pain in the back does not inevitably mean you've done yourself an injury! Your back cannot be harmed by doing the sort of movements carried out in bellydance - except where you twist and flex at the same time, or when you do a really vigorous Turkish drop - and even then the majority of the movement actually comes from hips and knees!

Sorry, I didn't specify which part of the pelvis was doing the tilting. I meant push the coccyx forward using the lower abdominals and straightening the spine.

 

[Daimona]

erm....tilting your pelvis forward usually means pushing your symphysis pubis back while the iliac crests come forward (rotating around the head of femur), this is the exact opposite of the usual advice to tilt the pelvis back - bringing the symphysis pubis foward by contracting the lower abdominals and associated musculature, and allowing the iliac crests to come back. You'll certainly have more range of movement with your knees 'soft' or slightly flexed, but not if you tilt your pelvis forward!

This is a very interesting thread, but I suddenly feel a bit confused..

Perhaps some of you please can point out some pages with detailed anatomic illustrations that illustrates these various positions?

 

[Kashmir]

I also have a sway back but I noticed that if I didn't tilt my pelvis forward when I danced, my lower back began to hurt from putting unnecessary pressure where my back curved. Also, when your pelvis is tilted forward, you will have a greater range of motion.

I think you mean lifting your pelvis? Lifting with the abs so the back becomes longer.

This is a very interesting thread, but I suddenly feel a bit confused..

Perhaps some of you please can point out some pages with detailed anatomic illustrations that illustrates these various positions?

Okay - neutral pelvis : Glossary - neutral pelvis
("posterior" means at the back - so the left hand side is the back - the right hand side the front)

Posture - lordosis: Glossary - lordosis
Click the diagram on the right to get a larger few (it also shows typically tight muscles for each type)

 

[Zanbaka]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a big proponent of honoring the natural curve of the spine and using a neutral pelvis for basic dance posture:

- A neutral spine, maintaining the natural curves of the spine. No part of the spine should be flat and the upper back should not be arched. This shouldn’t be confused with visualizing space between the vertebrate, length in the spine, and standing tall.
- A neutral pelvis position….this is a tough one to maintain. With our sedentary, modern lifestyle, we sit in chairs, couches, or cars a majority of the time, which can cause the muscles that run down the back of the legs to tighten and abdominals to weaken. This combination often produces a “sway back” or exaggerated curve in the low back accompanied by a pelvic tilt. Because this is so common, many bellydance formats insist on “tucking under” the pelvis or flattening the low back, however, I don’t feel that this method addresses individual alignment. Try to envision the fronts of the hip bones aligned with the front of the pubic bone. The triangular plane that these points make should be vertical and parallel to the mirror if you were standing in the studio. You may need to contract the abdominals and tilt the pelvis forward in relation to your everyday, relaxed posture or lengthen the abdominal and tilt the opposition direction to attain this position. Once in position, try to center the weight of the pelvis evenly over your ankles.

Just my 0.02 cents
~Zanbaka

 

[AlisonBellyDance]

This is a very interesting thread, but I suddenly feel a bit confused..

Perhaps some of you please can point out some pages with detailed anatomic illustrations that illustrates these various positions?

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a "normal" spine and lordosis of the spine. While dancing, you want to attempt to achieve a "normal" spine position so as not to hurt your back while dancing.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/9583.jpg

There are also many postings online about this topic if you Google "Belly Dance Posture."

 

[eden eyes]

that's a really neat diagram kashmir! thanks for posting that.

 

[Daimona]

Okay - neutral pelvis : Glossary - neutral pelvis
("posterior" means at the back - so the left hand side is the back - the right hand side the front)

Posture - lordosis: Glossary - lordosis
Click the diagram on the right to get a larger few (it also shows typically tight muscles for each type)

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a "normal" spine and lordosis of the spine. While dancing, you want to attempt to achieve a "normal" spine position so as not to hurt your back while dancing.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/9583.jpg

There are also many postings online about this topic if you Google "Belly Dance Posture."

Thank you very much, both of you!

 

[adiemus]

Just remember (broken record here) your back is strong, flexible and incredibly tough. Even if you have some pain (EVEN QUITE A LOT!) it doesn't mean you've 'damaged' anything. Most pain settles down - and it's actually very difficult to harm your back while dancing. So don't get too worried about whether you'll hurt your back or not when dancing - the pelvic position is much more about having enough movement around the hip joint to achieve some of the movements rather than preventing back injury.
As a researcher and clinician in the area of pain, I am so keen to make sure people don't over-react and medicalise what is normal!!

 

[maria_harlequin]

Just remember (broken record here) your back is strong, flexible and incredibly tough. Even if you have some pain (EVEN QUITE A LOT!) it doesn't mean you've 'damaged' anything. Most pain settles down - and it's actually very difficult to harm your back while dancing. So don't get too worried about whether you'll hurt your back or not when dancing - the pelvic position is much more about having enough movement around the hip joint to achieve some of the movements rather than preventing back injury.
As a researcher and clinician in the area of pain, I am so keen to make sure people don't over-react and medicalise what is normal!!

Thanks for that info! Are there anything we should avoid doing with our backs when we're dancing though? You mentioned that one shouldn't go into a backbend and twist but I can't really visualize that... If you've answered this before, maybe you can direct me to thread? Thanks!

As for my two cents on tucking, I don't usually tuck when I dance but I have noticed that tucking HELPS A LOT when doing spins, turns, and ballet work such as arabesques - I find it harder to lose my balance that way. No one mentioned this in to me in my belly dance classes - tucking was done to "protect" the back. But one of my closest friends is a professional latin dancesport competitor and she would talk about how she would pull her abs and her buttocks in together in order to maintain balance for lifts and turns.

 

[adiemus]

Twisting and bending is the only movement combination that is known to increase the risk of disc prolapse. So...if you were doing a backbend, and maybe lost balance and tried to twist to use your hands to catch you, you might risk getting into this position.
The other time might be if you were in forward flexion and twisting - but this is less of a problem IMHO.
Otherwise, no, bellydance is very very safe for your back - it doesn't mean you won't feel pain from time to time, back pain is very common but usually benign, and self-limiting. A bit like having a headache of the back. We dont' get worried about having a headache from time to time, and we know that sometimes this is about stress, dehydration, insufficient sleep, getting a flu - well, you know what sets you off! - but somehow we've got this idea that back pain is different. In nonwesternised countries there is just as much back pain as in western countries - but there are fewer people who are disabled (ie not working or highly distressed or getting treatment etc etc), than here in NZ.
The best treatment for back pain is getting back on your feet again, getting active, taking good pain relief for a couple of days, and taking things a bit quietly for a couple of days!