Sex and Sensuality

[lizaj]

I have a question. It was triggered by a thought I had.

We are discussing sexuality in this thread and it suddenly occured to me that I am not aware of many lesbians whom dance/perform in the UK.
With male dancers, we can judge people to camp or not and some male dancers I know are openly gay but I am not aware of any lesbian woman.

What is is like in other countries in realtion to this and does anyone know of anyone in the Uk?

Is it that people prefer to remain discreet about there sexuality, or despite being largely a female dance,attracts very few lesbians?

I am being perfecty serious here. And I am not in the slightest anti-gay having a close family member happily gay and with for whom I am happy . Once you get to know someone better, you tend to open up. Some people are still, despite a much wider acceptance of a different sexual choice these days, reluctant to admit their sexuality before they have some idea of the reaction of the group they are joining. I have to say most of my students are married and solidly heterosexual but hey ho what do we know about each other. For many years a person's inclination hasn't phased me and the last time I was propostioned by a woman, I found it no more of a problem than the unsolicited attentions of a man.But I remain solidly attracted by Sean Bean and Johnny Depp
Yes I have met a few gay women in the belly dance scene but more in the tribal scene than "cabaret" or Egyptian. A friend went to a tribal gathering and some women there were openly gay..no problem for either her or them. But I wonder what it is about that scene that might be more attractive than the other?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Lebians

I have a question. It was triggered by a thought I had.

We are discussing sexuality in this thread and it suddenly occured to me that I am not aware of many lesbians whom dance/perform in the UK.
With male dancers, we can judge people to camp or not and some male dancers I know are openly gay but I am not aware of any lesbian woman.

What is is like in other countries in realtion to this and does anyone know of anyone in the Uk?

Is it that people prefer to remain discreet about there sexuality, or despite being largely a female dance,attracts very few lesbians?

Dear Caroline,
I know of 3 lesbian dancers in my area alone. One of them is a very close friend of mine;a wonderful teacher and dancer. I will not name names because I want to respect their privacy. They are low key about it. One of them is very well known and respected in the Northwest area of the U.S.
I think lesbians are not always easy to recognize as such and most are not flamboyantly lesbian, as some gay males are flamboyantly gay. I know of gay males that you could not pick out in a crowd either.
Somehow, I think it is sort of easier to be lesbian than it is to be a gay male. Since patriarchal sensibilities are not offended and all, maybe that's it!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[da Sage]

There are definitely gay and bi female bellydancers out there. Generally, I think women's sexuality is more fluid than men's (for those who love semantics, I'll put it this way...there are more self-identified and somewhat "out" bi or "flexible" women out there, than there are self-identified and somewhat "out" bi, "flexible" men. Women dancers are assumed to be straight, while male dancers are not. So I think it just doesn't come up for women until/unless a personal friendship arises, or unless they volunteer that they have a partner, and also indicate that she's female (even the exact meaning of "girlfriend" is ambiguous when a woman says it). Whereas for men, the gay/straight question arises as soon as they enter a room.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I agree with all said so far. I am interested i what Lizaj said though about Tribal being more attarctive in the Uk scene.
It is an interesting one to analyse. It think image is one of the main aspects. Perhaps cabaret is too girly?
I was once asked to dance in a gay club, but it was for the appreciation of the female audience who behaved alot like men actually.

 

[lizaj]

I agree with all said so far. I am interested i what Lizaj said though about Tribal being more attarctive in the Uk scene.
It is an interesting one to analyse. It think image is one of the main aspects. Perhaps cabaret is too girly?
I was once asked to dance in a gay club, but it was for the appreciation of the female audience who behaved alot like men actually.

It could simply be that the women concerned felt more secure in the company they were in but sexuality aside do you think tribal is less "sexy" than cabaret?
On the surface it certainly is but I once danced at a fund raising and a gentleman ( no he wasn't older than me! came up afterwards and told me ( in the nicest possible way) that he found the number and me ....phew... rather sexy and powerful.
I was dressed and very well enveloped in typical ATS choli(with bodystocking even),turban,bloomers and big skirt and let's face it I ain't cute at my age...go on say it he was obviously turned on differently to other men:lol:

All in all sensuality, sexuality I suppose is translated in different ways by differnt people.
I find a lot of my students love the power of tribal group dancing. There's a feeling of satisfaction there too, I reckon

 

[gypsy8522]

This is interesting, In Hindi "Nasha" they use for sometimes to explain sensations. I wonder whether they got the word from Arabic script as "Hindi" do use many Arabic words in day to day conversations.

It could be, since there are Hindi words that derived from the arabic language... just like some Farsi words are taken from arabic.

 

[Brea]

...

 

[gypsy8522]

Dear Gypsy,
Thanks for the info and valuable perspective.
I have also heard from an old Jordanian lady that the word for orgasm is "el lutha". Her daughter did not know how to say "orgasm" in Aragic, so we asked.

Both terms "nashwa" and "laza" are used interchangibly to refer to an orgasm. I have a distant relative named "Malaz", it's plural for "laza"... since there is a lot of imagery in arabic language, these names don't sound anywhere as aweful as their meaning in english. Almost any adjective in arabic can be used as a name.

 

[da Sage]

da Sage- ah yes, painting and sculpture. I think I was referring to 'performance art' but you may have me there too.

Maybe that's a good way to put it, in fact. As sculpture or painting can be about sexuality, so can bellydance. It's that TYPE of sexuality that I mean when I use the phrase...does that make more sense?

I do think that we're running into mainly semantic arguments here; the sensuality of the dance is not doubted, and to some, sensual includes the sexual, but to some, sensual does not go far enough to describe it.

There's also half the drinking songs in existence, and don't forget Opera! And that's just obvious sexuality, not the ambiguous sensuality/sexuality zone at all.

 

[Suheir]

A friend went to a tribal gathering and some women there were openly gay..no problem for either her or them. But I wonder what it is about that scene that might be more attractive than the other?

Are they into piercings/tattoos, maybe? Those who are into the fetish scene, whether gay or straight, have gone for "tribal fusion" or whatever they want to call it in a big way.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Thanks!!

Both terms "nashwa" and "laza" are used interchangibly to refer to an orgasm. I have a distant relative named "Malaz", it's plural for "laza"... since there is a lot of imagery in arabic language, these names don't sound anywhere as aweful as their meaning in english. Almost any adjective in arabic can be used as a name.

Dear Gypsy,
I have said it before and I will say it again. We are very fortunate to have you as a member of this forum, not only because you speak Arabic, but because you give us such a depth of insight into the culture with your information. I do not think there is anything awful about being named after a word that denotes orgasm, considering the different meanings that word can even have in English. We apply it to our feelings about food, coffee, appreciating any number of things. The word we hear a lot for being in a state of extreme pleasure on any level, is "orgasmic".
Thanks!!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Dear Gypsy,
I have said it before and I will say it again. We are very fortunate to have you as a member of this forum, not only because you speak Arabic, but because you give us such a depth of insight into the culture with your information. I do not think there is anything awful about being named after a word that denotes orgasm, considering the different meanings that word can even have in English. We apply it to our feelings about food, coffee, appreciating any number of things. The word we hear a lot for being in a state of extreme pleasure on any level, is "orgasmic".
Thanks!!
Regards,
A'isha

Nashwa I always thought meant 'ecstacy' and laza 'enjoying' not just used specifically for orgasm but the words used to mean it. Does this make sense? gypsy, correct me if I am wrong please.
Nashwa can also be used in the context of the Um Kulthoums singing in relation to her connection with the music and lyrics (we call it 'in a zone' perhaps?)

 

[gypsy8522]

Nashwa I always thought meant 'ecstacy' and laza 'enjoying' not just used specifically for orgasm but the words used to mean it. Does this make sense? gypsy, correct me if I am wrong please.
Nashwa can also be used in the context of the Um Kulthoums singing in relation to her connection with the music and lyrics (we call it 'in a zone' perhaps?)

Caroline,

Most words in the arabic language are a derivative of a 3-letter word. eg salam islam muslim estaslim (to surrender), and the names Selma Salem Salim Salama, they are all derived from the 3 letter word s-l-m. That's why I said while the female names Nashwa and Malaz (plural of Laza) have sexual connotations, unless you over-analyze them, they are not as raunchy sounding as if you were to name a child "orgasm". However, in everyday conversation "orgasm" is what these terms are used to refer to. So, if you want to explain to a guy how much you're enjoying, the evening for example, you want to say "ana mostamte3a" which means "I feel enjoyment", NEVER "ana 7asa bil laza" (I feel laza) or expect some unwanted advances.

 

[Kashmir]

We are discussing sexuality in this thread and it suddenly occured to me that I am not aware of many lesbians whom dance/perform in the UK.
With male dancers, we can judge people to camp or not and some male dancers I know are openly gay but I am not aware of any lesbian woman.

What is is like in other countries in realtion to this and does anyone know of anyone in the Uk?

Is it that people prefer to remain discreet about there sexuality, or despite being largely a female dance,attracts very few lesbians?

You can pick up men who are camp certainly - but not gay. Lots of gays are not camp. However, in the dance scene (not just belly dance) homosexually seems to be fairly well accepted.

As for lesbian dancers, umm - how exactly are you going to tell? A pre-announcement prior to each performance? Lesbians come in every variety of appearance and personality you can imagine; some are married (to men); many have children; some are pretty and girly; some are shy. I know of a couple - only because of social time spent with them. In a workshop I rarely start a conversation about other dancer's sexual preference. It just isn't relevant.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

You can pick up men who are camp certainly - but not gay. Lots of gays are not camp. However, in the dance scene (not just belly dance) homosexually seems to be fairly well accepted.

As for lesbian dancers, umm - how exactly are you going to tell? A pre-announcement prior to each performance? Lesbians come in every variety of appearance and personality you can imagine; some are married (to men); many have children; some are pretty and girly; some are shy. I know of a couple - only because of social time spent with them. In a workshop I rarely start a conversation about other dancer's sexual preference. It just isn't relevant.

Anything is relevant when you are discussing it as research or a sociological study. I many other ways it should not be relevant.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Caroline,

Most words in the arabic language are a derivative of a 3-letter word. eg salam islam muslim estaslim (to surrender), and the names Selma Salem Salim Salama, they are all derived from the 3 letter word s-l-m. That's why I said while the female names Nashwa and Malaz (plural of Laza) have sexual connotations, unless you over-analyze them, they are not as raunchy sounding as if you were to name a child "orgasm". However, in everyday conversation "orgasm" is what these terms are used to refer to. So, if you want to explain to a guy how much you're enjoying, the evening for example, you want to say "ana mostamte3a" which means "I feel enjoyment", NEVER "ana 7asa bil laza" (I feel laza) or expect some unwanted advances.

That is what I meant sorry, in arabic there is no one specific word for orgasm but words like nashwa have been used replace this. I undertood, i was just checking we were saying the same thing and we were.