Sex and Sensuality

[cathy]

I strongly believe it is artist's choice of what message you want to send to the audience, what mood you want to create, what EMOTIONS you want to convey... And nopes I dont think that sexual are the only feelings that can be expressed by the dance....

Totally agree that it's the dancer''s choice and expressing the music and emotion is key to the dance.

I sometimes wonder whether some people emphasize the sexual potential either for exhibitionistic purposes or because they have internalized sexist messages to the extent that they feel only those qualities make them worth watching. That this is the only way to get validation.

In the past Aisha has explained how sexuality is much more complex than just dry hump or masturbatory writhings, which I agree with. There can be a world of various emotions in both sex and dance.

Cathy

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Totally agree that it's the dancer''s choice and expressing the music and emotion is key to the dance.

I sometimes wonder whether some people emphasize the sexual potential either for exhibitionistic purposes or because they have internalized sexist messages to the extent that they feel only those qualities make them worth watching. That this is the only way to get validation.

In the past Aisha has explained how sexuality is much more complex than just dry hump or masturbatory writhings, which I agree with. There can be a world of various emotions in both sex and dance.

Cathy

In Egypt I have seen it being done in humour as a form of rebellion against 'women should not behave like this'. In context it can be done to challenge a stereotype. Of course sexuality is complex, it doesnt however become a justified exuse for some of the things that happen on the dance floor.

 

[cathy]

In Egypt I have seen it being done in humour as a form of rebellion against 'women should not behave like this'. In context it can be done to challenge a stereotype. Of course sexuality is complex, it doesnt however become a justified exuse for some of the things that happen on the dance floor.

Yes I have heard about this. You mean like Dina? I fancy it is similar to how Madonna was in the US back in her day. I agree it can be a kind of feminist statement. But it usuallly isn't hard to tell the difference.

Cathy

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Yes I have heard about this. You mean like Dina? I fancy it is similar to how Madonna was in the US back in her day. I agree it can be a kind of feminist statement. But it usuallly isn't hard to tell the difference.

Cathy

You would think so, but I have known women to copy acts they have seen in Turkey in holiday resorts because it is 'what the Turkish dancers do there'.
Context is so important and some peple just do not get it right.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I could not believe my eyes when I read about orgasms on stage.
I am still in shock. Apart from anything, it is profoundly unprofessional and if I have heard of anything giving this dance a bad name then it is this.
A performer has a duty to remain focused and in control at all times. It is not public masturbation. It is not about sexual kicks in public. A dance may make a woman feel good about herself, desirable, attractive and like the queen of the party but anthing like an orgasm means someone has serious issues to deal with. Sorry, but this is my opinion.

In total agreement. Not being a woman and therefore lacking the necessary equipment, I can't speak about what sensations may or may not occur when doing certain movements. Regardless, even if there is a movement that can generate an orgasm, its just a movement and as we all know the dance is not about any particular movement. Its about musical and emotional expression. I have friends who tell me they can get a big O riding on the back of a motor cycle, but does this mean a motorcycle is a sex toy? NO!
Whatever happens is incidental and I believe its the same thing with the dance.

Because the dance is a vehicle of emotional expression a person can choose to express whatever they choose. Now having said that I don't forget that the original intent was that a woman be elegant, charming and sexy. the costume is designed to make a woman look sexy, but then again, so is all fashion. Make up, hair styles, clothes are all used and styled with the intention of tastefully displaying a woman's sex-appeal. Remember Audrey Hepburn in that famous wide hat and white dress in My Fair Lady? THAT WAS SEXY! The whole point of that movie what an ideal woman was supposed to be. It was about the cultivation and display of a feminine ideal and while sexuality was a part of it, there was a line to be kept as to good taste and decorum. The same hold true for Oriental dance. Raks Baladi was taken out of the homes and alleys of CAiro and taught how to say, "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain", and "How do you do". It was smacked upside the head with a magic wand by fairy Godmother so it could go to the ball and charm the prince, not so it could meet the prince in the back room and get it on! So to answer the original question of this thread and what people struggle with coming to terms with, the dancer is supposed to have an image that reflects sex appeal and a feminine ideal. That's the starting point. She must then express her personality through the dance. Some women are sex pots, some are sweet, some are broads. Therefore we can't say the dance is about sex any more than we can say going to a cocktail party is about sex. In both instances a woman is expected to express an ideal of femininity and charm, but there is a line that is not and should not be crossed and this is understood. Having orgasms on stage is not only way over that line it kills the spirit and intent of what a dancer's job is, to connect with the audience. Masturbation in public is the ultimate disrespect and dismissal of your audience for your own self absorption.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

For some, this dance has long been an exuse for blatent exhibitionism.

I find this sooooo hard to believe. Whateeever could have lead you to such a conclusion I wonder? :lol:

 

[da Sage]

Well who says that showing sex in movies is ok??? LMAO

I think modern movie industry is built more on sex appeal of actors than on acting itself! I do believe certain movies would just benefit from refraining from explicit scenes! After all its so typical that 2 characters that know each other barely a day must have sex or the movie is not complete.... and then we can go on and talk about STDs and teenage pregnancies....

Oh and I find it an interesting opinion that bellydance moves imitate ' orgasmic-looking stylizations'.... I suppose thats what one as a DANCER puts in it. To me they are ORGANIC rather than orgasmic! That is following the natural flexibility of the body, emphasizing it.

Well if you as a performer act out orgasm, that's your artistic choice? But to say that's EVERYONE who dances is bound to do the same, would be narrowing the expressional pallete of the dance to just one aspect of sexuality?

I strongly believe it is artist's choice of what message you want to send to the audience, what mood you want to create, what EMOTIONS you want to convey... And nopes I dont think that sexual are the only feelings that can be expressed by the dance....

Well, the floorwork move that involves a layback and ab ripple is bordering on sexual. I think the "layback and tremor" move is very sexual. Even the standing tremor shimmy can "go there", depending on the presentation.

I don't think all bellydancing is about sexuality, but these are edgier moves that can easily transmit a sexual vibe. As I've often said, not all dancers bring that to their performance.

 

[Reen.Blom]

Yippy, Lets go the the ball, where is my fairy Godmother, wait I already got my price, now stay at home and bake croissants...LOL

Tarik, I really looove your explanation, cocktail party and all... One question, how does male belly dance come into "the dancer is supposed to have an image that reflects sex appeal and a feminine ideal" ?

 

[Reen.Blom]

I find this sooooo hard to believe. Whateeever could have lead you to such a conclusion I wonder? :lol:

Let us not point the finger..... oh maybe I rather go and add in in youTube threads "porn faces" and all... ha ha

 

[Marya]

Sorry to chime in so late but here is my memory of Shareen El Safey's comments about Egyptian dancers,

A'isha writes- I do not recall Shareen stating that the dancer was an Egyptian or otherwise. end quote.

I heard Shareen say in a workshop, to everybody, that when she asked Nagua Foaud what she felt when she danced, Nagua replied "climax", Shareen also asked another Egyptian Dancer (Shareen gave the name and I recognized it from a video but I can't remember it right now, not a dancer well known in American, but definitely Egyptian) the same question to which she replied "orgasm". What I don't know is if this conversation happened in English or Arabic or with an interpreter.

What Morocco said is also true, it doesn't mean that the dancers actually experienced a physical orgasm but rather it could mean that they had similar feelings and maybe, if the conversation was in English, lacked the language to express the feelings more politely.

Frankly, in the privacy of my own home when I dance to certain music I experience quite pleasant, what I would call pre-orgasm, feelings. In public never, I am a bit of a prude, and don't even like to kiss or hold hands in public.

Marya

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Sorry to chime in so late but here is my memory of Shareen El Safey's comments about Egyptian dancers,

A'isha writes- I do not recall Shareen stating that the dancer was an Egyptian or otherwise. end quote.

I heard Shareen say in a workshop, to everybody, that when she asked Nagua Foaud what she felt when she danced, Nagua replied "climax", Shareen also asked another Egyptian Dancer (Shareen gave the name and I recognized it from a video but I can't remember it right now, not a dancer well known in American, but definitely Egyptian) the same question to which she replied "orgasm". What I don't know is if this conversation happened in English or Arabic or with an interpreter.

What Morocco said is also true, it doesn't mean that the dancers actually experienced a physical orgasm but rather it could mean that they had similar feelings and maybe, if the conversation was in English, lacked the language to express the feelings more politely.

Frankly, in the privacy of my own home when I dance to certain music I experience quite pleasant, what I would call pre-orgasm, feelings. In public never, I am a bit of a prude, and don't even like to kiss or hold hands in public.

Marya

This sounds much closer to the truth. I breath a sigh of... relief.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Sorry to chime in so late but here is my memory of Shareen El Safey's comments about Egyptian dancers,

A'isha writes- I do not recall Shareen stating that the dancer was an Egyptian or otherwise. end quote.

I heard Shareen say in a workshop, to everybody, that when she asked Nagua Foaud what she felt when she danced, Nagua replied "climax", Shareen also asked another Egyptian Dancer (Shareen gave the name and I recognized it from a video but I can't remember it right now, not a dancer well known in American, but definitely Egyptian) the same question to which she replied "orgasm". What I don't know is if this conversation happened in English or Arabic or with an interpreter.

What Morocco said is also true, it doesn't mean that the dancers actually experienced a physical orgasm but rather it could mean that they had similar feelings and maybe, if the conversation was in English, lacked the language to express the feelings more politely.

Frankly, in the privacy of my own home when I dance to certain music I experience quite pleasant, what I would call pre-orgasm, feelings. In public never, I am a bit of a prude, and don't even like to kiss or hold hands in public.

Marya

You know, they could have been speaking figuratively. Like when you've had a sinfully delicious desert and you describe it as being orgasmic. Doesn't mean that that apple walnut cream cheese cake ala mode actually gave you a buzzing tingle that made your seat wet!:shok:....or did it?:redface:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Yippy, Lets go the the ball, where is my fairy Godmother, wait I already got my price, now stay at home and bake croissants...LOL

Tarik, I really looove your explanation, cocktail party and all... One question, how does male belly dance come into "the dancer is supposed to have an image that reflects sex appeal and a feminine ideal" ?

Well keeping in mind that Sharki was developed with the male audience in mind, i would say if men were following in the same mode it would be mirroring a woman's ideal of masculine sex appeal. Of course we are talking about archetypes here. There is the archetype of the suave, elegant, virile gentle man. Sean Connery as 007, Douglas Fairbanks Jr. All these guys had the IT factor. Men also have a sex appeal as well. The metro-sexual phenomenon is definitely all about guys being sexy. When we put on the cologne, comb our hair just right, wear those fitted shirts designed to compliment a toned physique and those jeans tailored to show off our assets , (no pun intended), that's all about being sexy. This is what I mean when i say that men have our own beauty that should be celebrated and why I get so pissed off when I see male dancers who look like they've been playing in their sister's closet. Sharki was developed to give men something beautiful and romantic to look at, why the hell should we short change women! Don't they deserve to have the same thing?

So using that as the starting point, he could express many different personalities. He could be the prince charming, the dangerous rogue, the life of the party, or the guy you read about in bodice rippers. Men have the same range of personalities to compliment, not compete with, our sisters.

 

[gypsy8522]

Sorry, I missed this thread... I only read the last two posts above me.

The arabic term for orgasm IS "Nashwa", and because it is a "female noun" (like French and German, nouns have genders in Arabic), it is also a common name for Arab females. eg there's a well known TV host on MBC named Nashwa Rowaini. A lot of times I hear artists say how they feel this "nashwa" when they're performing..... I know it sounds silly when you over analyze it.

 

[Dev]

Sorry, I missed this thread... I only read the last two posts above me.

The arabic term for orgasm IS "Nashwa", and because it is a "female noun" (like French and German, nouns have genders in Arabic), it is also a common name for Arab females. eg there's a well known TV host on MBC named Nashwa Rowaini. A lot of times I hear artists say how they feel this "nashwa" when they're performing..... I know it sounds silly when you over analyze it.

This is interesting, In Hindi "Nasha" they use for sometimes to explain sensations. I wonder whether they got the word from Arabic script as "Hindi" do use many Arabic words in day to day conversations.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Terms, etc

Sorry, I missed this thread... I only read the last two posts above me.

The arabic term for orgasm IS "Nashwa", and because it is a "female noun" (like French and German, nouns have genders in Arabic), it is also a common name for Arab females. eg there's a well known TV host on MBC named Nashwa Rowaini. A lot of times I hear artists say how they feel this "nashwa" when they're performing..... I know it sounds silly when you over analyze it.

Dear Gypsy,
Thanks for the info and valuable perspective.
I have also heard from an old Jordanian lady that the word for orgasm is "el lutha". Her daughter did not know how to say "orgasm" in Aragic, so we asked.



Dear Everyone,
Regardless, orgasmic or not, the dance is still has a sexuality about it that goes beyond the nicer word, "sensual". Sexual is more visceral, more earthy, less romantic and more down with some of the realities of the dance in its native environment, I think. Most people are not out to clean up belly dance, in the Middle East, as many people seem so determined to do here in the west.

Regards to all,
A'isha

 

[Brea]

...

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Dear Gypsy,


Dear Everyone,
Regardless, orgasmic or not, the dance is still has a sexuality about it that goes beyond the nicer word, "sensual". Sexual is more visceral, more earthy, less romantic and more down with some of the realities of the dance in its native environment, I think. Most people are not out to clean up belly dance, in the Middle East, as many people seem so determined to do here in the west.

Regards to all,
A'isha

Why is it about cleaning it up? we cannot strike a balance here. On one you are making reference to orgasms on the stage and the next cleaning it up (ooh the thought).
Eating can be viewed as sexual, they used pretty girls eating cadbury's Flakes and nothing else in their commercials. playing a guitar is sexual, most things can be brought back to sexuality.
It is something that we all know is innate and human.
It is how far we go when we express it in public...isnt it?
In shaabi clubs in Egypt, it almost becomes burlesque in the sexual humour and innuendo.
It is about context for me and not an exuse to jump up anytime, any place any where and say 'hey, watch me for 20 minutes while I get my rocks off'.

 

[Reen.Blom]

Well keeping in mind that Sharki was developed with the male audience in mind, i would say if men were following in the same mode it would be mirroring a woman's ideal of masculine sex appeal. Of course we are talking about archetypes here. There is the archetype of the suave, elegant, virile gentle man. Sean Connery as 007, Douglas Fairbanks Jr. All these guys had the IT factor. Men also have a sex appeal as well. The metro-sexual phenomenon is definitely all about guys being sexy. When we put on the cologne, comb our hair just right, wear those fitted shirts designed to compliment a toned physique and those jeans tailored to show off our assets , (no pun intended), that's all about being sexy. This is what I mean when i say that men have our own beauty that should be celebrated and why I get so pissed off when I see male dancers who look like they've been playing in their sister's closet. Sharki was developed to give men something beautiful and romantic to look at, why the hell should we short change women! Don't they deserve to have the same thing?

So using that as the starting point, he could express many different personalities. He could be the prince charming, the dangerous rogue, the life of the party, or the guy you read about in bodice rippers. Men have the same range of personalities to compliment, not compete with, our sisters.

Thank you for explanation, I think that is what annoys me most 'male dancers who look like they've been playing in their sister's closet'! I think I'll be offto youTube to look for princes, rogues, etc. Any fav clips you would recommend?
PS thank you again for your great posts!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Sexuality, etc.

Why is it about cleaning it up? we cannot strike a balance here. On one you are making reference to orgasms on the stage and the next cleaning it up (ooh the thought).
Eating can be viewed as sexual, they used pretty girls eating cadbury's Flakes and nothing else in their commercials. playing a guitar is sexual, most things can be brought back to sexuality.
It is something that we all know is innate and human.
It is how far we go when we express it in public...isnt it?
In shaabi clubs in Egypt, it almost becomes burlesque in the sexual humour and innuendo.
It is about context for me and not an exuse to jump up anytime, any place any where and say 'hey, watch me for 20 minutes while I get my rocks off'.

Dear Caroline,
You may have misunderstood me. I, personally, do not think belly dance has to be "cleaned up", since I see nothing to clean up in the first place. In the West, there are many people who want to deny the sexual content of the dance. Among my Middle Eastern friends, I do not find this same concept that the dance is pristine and romantic, in some Victorian sense almost. They instead seem to embrace the sexual aspects of the dance, though some people have a love/hate relationship with that. I have never insinuated that its about jumping up and getting one's rocks off. that, in fact, can be decidedly unsexy in the wrong place and time.
Regards,
A'isha