A question regarding the music and the moves

[Farasha Hanem]

Also regarding costuming, we have the same analogy here with professional singers. The BIG STAR names (the Beyonces and Lady Gagas and Madonnas) have crazy elaborate costumes with Swarovski crystals and lots (or a ridiculously minute amount of) super expensive fabric. But at the base, they're just wearing fancy dresses.

Not-so-big-name singers wear nice dresses. The singer at your local jazz club, or featured soloist with your local philharmonic orchestra is going to be wearing a nice dress. Maybe not $5000 worth of nice, but a nice dress. At the base, it's a fancier version of what you might wear out, or wear to work, or whatever.

Dina is a HUGE star over there. We can't really apply (necessarily) what SHE does to what every dancer does, because there are a lot more not-so-famous dancers than there are famous ones, just like in the US there are a lot more not-so-famous singers than there are famous ones.


Costuming for belly dance is a lot like costuming for professional singers -- and that's really just a jazzed up version of what people wear normally. Or did. Not everybody wears a dress these days, but you see where it comes from, historically. The more successful the dancer/singer, the more jazzed up the dress. OR -- sometimes the bigger the venue, the more expensive the dress.

I heard Lady GaGa wears meat dresses?

 

[Shanazel]

Lady Gaga's Meat Dress Is Now Jerky—And You Can See It Tomorrow: DCist

It didn't hold up well in the wash.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Well, foot! I got so wrapped up in this topic (not a meat pun, not trying to butcher the thread ), that I've quite forgotten why I was going to quote the following (I can't remember now what it's fixing to say! Oo;;; ):

I think Arab dance music has been doing this since they opened to the West -- if you look at Golden Age music, it's stuffed full of Afro-Cuban rhythms and music. There's not a whole lot in Mohammed Abdel Wahab's catalogue that doesn't sound pretty overtly Western and a lot of it seems to reference music composed for ballet.




What was this video, may I ask?

One thought/question though -- I think I would argue that Tribal Fusion MUSIC has really developed as a direct result of the style -- as in, the dance style drove the creation of a new kind of music that would fit it better. (Rather than the other way around.)

I would argue this by pointing to some of Rachel and Heather's older work, which was basically done to "drum circle" kind of drumming, or more folky Arab music. As the style got more popular, especially Rachel's style of Suhaila-esque drills in her "tribal," suddenly everybody with a copy of Garageband seemed to be making that 4/4 groove kind of sound that we associate now with TF. From that grew what we now think of as the canon music for TF like Beats Antique.

(I'm not sure when the circus-y/vaudeville/Manman stage started, but that doesn't seem to have affected the entire movement.) Any thoughts on that? Am I way off?

Ohhhh, NOW I remember! It seems like right before the Tribal side of the BDSS brigade came out with the DVD, "Tribal Fusions," that I started noticing the more circusy-type music. Bleck.

 

[BeatriceC]

I would say that those who wish to stray/innovate are the ones who should look for a new name to describe the new dances they wish to create. If you (the generic "you", not "you" personally) want to depart from traditional belly dance, then why not use a new name to go with your new dance?

The San Francisco troupe Ultra Gypsy did something several years ago I thought was brilliant - once they decided to incorporate a lot of non-Middle-Eastern influences into their performances (such as poi spinning and other fire stuff), they abandoned the term "belly dance" for what they did, and called it "dance theater". I think that's a great name for the new direction they were taking at the time. Why can't other dancers do the same?

Except that they didn't abandon it at all. Their tribe (which seems to be the only remaining "official" web-presence these days) describes themselves as: "an innovative belly dance theater company".

Most of these theatrical fusion troupes seem to have a lot of difficulty stepping out from under the big safe bellydance umbrella.

 

[Zumarrad]

"Invented" was perhaps an extrapolation. I have read repeatedly over the years variations on the theme that "belly dance" is the American reinvention or re-presentation of ME dances, inspired by raqs sharqi but created in the US and not the same as raqs sharqi. The position is that "belly dance" is not Middle Eastern dance, but an American development.

Seriously, there's a thesis. I don't have academic library access any more and since I didn't actually use it in my final MA, it's not in my works cited, so I can't look it up.

However:

Masha Archer, from the Fat Chance website:

"She feels that Middle Easterners are unfit for the job of caretakers of this dance. The culture is ashamed of the dance and abusive towards women. Also, the dance has been controlled by their government and disrespected by male club owners. She feels that American women have honored it more and deserve to adopt it."

"She referred to (the costuming), though, as "Authentic Modern American" because of the American concept of taking liberties with authenticity and origins.
Masha also had an American attitude for choosing different types of music for bellydancing. She found that only using the popular music of the Middle East for the dance, which was expected, was a narrow way of looking at it. She decided that there were many sources of music that had related expressions, such as folkloric musical sources from other countries, even opera and classical music. ... Masha was very aware that she was taking extreme liberties with this dance and its cultural roots, but she felt strongly that the dance form was so special and so deserving of respect that no matter what she did with it, it would be beautiful. That was the ultimate legacy that she imparted to her students."

It's all very lovely, the idea of complete artistic freedom in the pursuit of Beauty, but it's also called cultural appropriation where I come from, and Masha's statements are racist, and I know Shanazel disagrees and I'd rather not get into that again. I state again that I am not taking an antiAmerican position.

As far as I am concerned you cannot have the baby without the bathwater. Or perhaps, you can't adopt the black baby and think that just because you tell it it is white and give it every advantage, it will magically not experience prejudice.

 

[Roshanna]

Masha Archer, from the Fat Chance website:

"She feels that Middle Easterners are unfit for the job of caretakers of this dance. The culture is ashamed of the dance and abusive towards women. Also, the dance has been controlled by their government and disrespected by male club owners. She feels that American women have honored it more and deserve to adopt it."

If that is a direct quote, I find it quite shockingly disrespectful and rather racist. It treats Middle Eastern people as a homogeneous mass who apparently 'don't deserve' their own culture. Patronising colonialism at its best...

Worryingly, I've heard what seem to me to be similar sentiments, albeit less offensively worded, from a respected (non-tribal) UK teacher.

 

[Zumarrad]

Yes, it's not just a tribal thing or just an American thing, though I have tended to see it written down online by people who are in America, and it is true that bellydance seems to have shifted into this globalised commodity with a great deal of help from the US and the ways it developed there.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say that it doesn't really matter what Arabs think because they want to hide us under burqas and stop us dancing/we're dancing for white westerners so they won't care, well, I'd have been able to visit Egypt by now.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

"Invented" was perhaps an extrapolation. I have read repeatedly over the years variations on the theme that "belly dance" is the American reinvention or re-presentation of ME dances, inspired by raqs sharqi but created in the US and not the same as raqs sharqi. The position is that "belly dance" is not Middle Eastern dance, but an American development.

Seriously, there's a thesis. I don't have academic library access any more and since I didn't actually use it in my final MA, it's not in my works cited, so I can't look it up.

However:

Masha Archer, from the Fat Chance website:

"She feels that Middle Easterners are unfit for the job of caretakers of this dance. The culture is ashamed of the dance and abusive towards women. Also, the dance has been controlled by their government and disrespected by male club owners. She feels that American women have honored it more and deserve to adopt it."

"She referred to (the costuming), though, as "Authentic Modern American" because of the American concept of taking liberties with authenticity and origins.
Masha also had an American attitude for choosing different types of music for bellydancing. She found that only using the popular music of the Middle East for the dance, which was expected, was a narrow way of looking at it. She decided that there were many sources of music that had related expressions, such as folkloric musical sources from other countries, even opera and classical music. ... Masha was very aware that she was taking extreme liberties with this dance and its cultural roots, but she felt strongly that the dance form was so special and so deserving of respect that no matter what she did with it, it would be beautiful. That was the ultimate legacy that she imparted to her students."

It's all very lovely, the idea of complete artistic freedom in the pursuit of Beauty, but it's also called cultural appropriation where I come from, and Masha's statements are racist, and I know Shanazel disagrees and I'd rather not get into that again. I state again that I am not taking an antiAmerican position.

As far as I am concerned you cannot have the baby without the bathwater. Or perhaps, you can't adopt the black baby and think that just because you tell it it is white and give it every advantage, it will magically not experience prejudice.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!? >:0 THIS is the attitude upon which FCBD is built?!?!? Does Carolina Nec...Nic...ohhhhhhh, BLARGH! Does Rachel Brice's mentor feel the same way?????

I've been a huge fan (and a former beginner student---long story) of ATS/ITS, but I'm beginning to wonder if I now need to question my affection for it. On the one hand, I don't want to just completely write off an entire genre of dance, but if this is the foundation upon which said genre is built, I'm not sure if I want to learn it any more in the future. I don't know now if I want to be associated with something who's foundation is based on racism and cultural appropriation.

I didn't have any problem with the Tribal genres at all as long as they were honest and didn't call themselves "authentic ME dance," but this is a serious blow to that thinking. Even though my former ATS (ITS? again, long story) teacher isn't having classes at the moment, I don't think she's aware of the attitude of FCBD.

I'm not sure what my attitude or feelings are now. This is such a disappointment.

 

[Zumarrad]

It's my understanding that it was Masha's opinion and that Carolena (who I have never met) doesn't ascribe to that same belief. Certainly I don't think some of the people I've met who routinely work with Carolena would put up with that kind of nonsense. And I honestly think that Carolena is brave and good to include that on her site, because the interview it was in disappeared for a while and it's good that FCBD own that as part of their heritage, even though it is yukky.

I have friends who are very devoted to ATS who are also very devoted to studying and respecting the base dances, and who work carefully around the issues of appropriation that we all share. I don't think ATSers in the main are racists at all. I've met some very very racist "cab uh ray" dancers in my life. I've met some ignorant people in every walk of life!

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Sorry for the double post, but something else bothers me. My eyes were opened a few short years ago on the use of the word "gypsy," so now I no longer use it except to discuss how racist the word itself is. Yet I see the word used in association all the time with bellydance groups, bellydance events, BD-inspired music (think "Gypsy Caravan"), etc. Why are people so insistent in using this word????

I have tried my best to be a non-rude, gentle influence on such matters, but I don't think I've even made a dent of an influence on those around me. On my Facebook page every now and then, I post links to these sort of discussions here on the forum in hopes that my teacher and classmates will take the time to read them, I've encouraged all of them to join this forum, I politely pointed out to my bindi-wearing friend that bindis belong to the Indian culture and that it's a misrepresentation to mix it with cabaret, but you know what my influence has been? It's like, "pffffffffffffffffffffffft." -_- I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

It's my understanding that it was Masha's opinion and that Carolena (who I have never met) doesn't ascribe to that same belief. Certainly I don't think some of the people I've met who routinely work with Carolena would put up with that kind of nonsense. And I honestly think that Carolena is brave and good to include that on her site, because the interview it was in disappeared for a while and it's good that FCBD own that as part of their heritage, even though it is yukky.

I have friends who are very devoted to ATS who are also very devoted to studying and respecting the base dances, and who work carefully around the issues of appropriation that we all share. I don't think ATSers in the main are racists at all. I've met some very very racist "cab uh ray" dancers in my life. I've met some ignorant people in every walk of life!

That's a relief. As I said, I didn't want to write off the entire genre, but I don't want to practice something if it was based on racism. Thank you for the information, Zummrad.

 

[DancingArabian]

You all have made some great posts but I'm on my phone so I can't respond properly.

I had a thought while reading through the posts..
I wonder if the dance companies are reluctant to let go of "belly dance" in their verbiage because they think it would negatively affect their sales?

Just me personally but if someone said "belly dance tap dance fusion" (totally making that up) it would bring to mind something different than would "gypsy tap" (also totally made up) or "Egyptian tap" (another made up one!) or some other made up thing.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Sorry for the double post, but something else bothers me. My eyes were opened a few short years ago on the use of the word "gypsy," so now I no longer use it except to discuss how racist the word itself is. Yet I see the word used in association all the time with bellydance groups, bellydance events, BD-inspired music (think "Gypsy Caravan"), etc. Why are people so insistent in using this word????

Oh Farasha, you ask such difficult questions

Because all the reasons in this thread. Mainly, the fantasy is fun, and anyway we're American and in Merica the word "gypsy" means free spirit and we're not TRYING to be authentic and why can't you just enjoy dancing?

Seriously -- every time the "Gypsy" thing comes up, I can't help but be reminded of the film "Clerks 2" where Randall doesn't realize the term "porch monkey" is a racial slur, and decides he, as a white man, is going to "take it back" or reclaim the term because his personal definition of it isn't racist.

I never realized Porch Monkey was a racial slur either, for a long time. I mean it wasn't a term I used in most conversations anyway, but once it was pointed out to me I understood how offense would be taken. Nobody starts out life knowing every word that's offensive -- but it's even MORE offensive to decide, as a middle class white girl, that it's actually okay for me to call my neighbor's kids porch monkeys because I'm using the term according to MY PERSONAL definition.

Same applies with Gypsy.

 

[shiradotnet]

I've never heard anyone claim Americans invented belly dance. I've been dancing almost twenty years in the U.S. I've heard other bizarre origin claims, but never that.

I haven't heard that claim either. However, the fact that Kajira Djoumahna, in her book The Tribal Bible, focuses her history section exclusively on Western dancers implies (through omission) that the Middle Eastern origins are not important. So, while it's not a claim that belly dance was invented in the U.S., it sort of implies that anything that happened before the U.S. came along wasn't important for people to know the history of.

 

[shiradotnet]

Except that they didn't abandon it at all. Their tribe (which seems to be the only remaining "official" web-presence these days) describes themselves as: "an innovative belly dance theater company".

Most of these theatrical fusion troupes seem to have a lot of difficulty stepping out from under the big safe bellydance umbrella.

Oh, did they start using the term "belly dance" again? That disappoints me greatly. There was a time when they didn't.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I wonder if the dance companies are reluctant to let go of "belly dance" in their verbiage because they think it would negatively affect their sales?

YES -- Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!

Plus, if you leave the word "bellydance" in, you can still go to belly dance events (which are numerous and draw lots of audience members.)

If you're not under, as Zum put it, the big umbrella of something like "ballet" or "Bellydance," well, where ya gonna dance? Ya know? There are virtually no venues for experimental "other" dancing.


[/quote] Just me personally but if someone said "belly dance tap dance fusion" (totally making that up)[/quote]

Honestly, I have been considering a tap dance + finger cymbal dance for years. I love the idea. Not belly dance, but I'd still love to do it. Problem is -- I have no venue for it.

it would bring to mind something different than would "gypsy tap" (also totally made up) or "Egyptian tap" (another made up one!) or some other made up thing.

The thing about the word/phrase "belly dance" -- is that to pretty much everyone who is NOT a dancer, it conjures up a particular description. Maybe it's not a historically accurate description, and maybe it's a culturally offensive description, but most people tend to think "Jeannie in a bottle" or they think face veils and finger cymbals, or a girl shimmying and undulating or whatever.

Everybody knows belly dancing as this vaguely Arabian or Turkish thing -- something to do with the "Orient" or "Arabia" or some desert somewhere that's not New Mexico. So there is already a certain cultural expectation just when you hear the phrase. (Again, it can certainly be the WRONG expectation, but it's there.)


I think you ask great questions, DancingArabian, and those are the questions that most of us ask when we're introduced to this dance. A lot of us hate the term Belly Dance for any number of reasons, but we rely on it for marketing purposes. Zumba teachers do the same thing -- they often teach a bizarre version of floor aerobics that they call "belly dance" because "belly dance" is a marketable term right now.

When people look for a dancer for their wedding, even Arab people, in MY area, they still google "belly dancer" -- mostly because that IS the popular term. They don't google "Raqs Sharqi artist" -- even though Yasmin said that is how the dancer was announced in Egypt before her performance.

My website is myhometownBELLYDANCE because I used to have myhometownORIENTALDANCE and I never got any hits.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I haven't heard that claim either. However, the fact that Kajira Djoumahna, in her book The Tribal Bible, focuses her history section exclusively on Western dancers implies (through omission) that the Middle Eastern origins are not important. So, while it's not a claim that belly dance was invented in the U.S., it sort of implies that anything that happened before the U.S. came along wasn't important for people to know the history of.

I think the argument is more that we invented this ATS thing BASED ON dances of the Middle East, blahblahblah.

But I do think I remember reading the thesis Zum mentioned -- didn't she focus on Tribal Fusion as a cultural identity marker for generation X or something?

 

[Ariadne]

Makes me think of the catch-phrase of my youth: "the first against the wall will be...."

No one else has asked so I am going to. What does that even mean? It's invoking images of firing squads in my mind so I hope I'm totally off.

 

[Shanazel]

I know Shanazel disagrees

Actually Shanazel thinks Masha has a serious problem with an attitude like that and could stand some further education on the matter. She is hardly representative of the American belly dance community, though.

"Invented" is indeed an extrapolation and an extravagent one at that. As I said before, I have never heard anyone claim that belly dance is an American invention. I have heard that ATS is an American dance that was based on the dances of the Middle East and Northern Africa.

I have also heard said that American Cabaret is an offshoot of Middle Eastern dance, meaning that belly dance arrived in this country with middle eastern immigrants and gradually evolved into something distinctly identifiable from Egyptian or Turkish belly dance, for example. Saying that recognizes and appreciates the middle eastern roots of AmCab/Am Oriental while also recognizing that AC/AO is not the original dance.

To follow the black child called white analogy, I suppose you'd call AmCab bi-racial. I don't think that is a bad thing.

 

[Kashmir]

Masha Archer is ATS, right? The ATS site states "Jamila Salimpour, an American, is considered the originator of American Tribal Style Bellydance" but that's not a claim to inventing belly dance. The ATS site gives also gives credit for ATS inspiration to middle eastern and northern African dances. Did Masha go nomad and make more sweeping claims? I'm not familiar enough with her to know.

Delilah? The one who wrote that "Belly dance movements incorporate elements of striptease and vice versa. Hootch Dance, Cootch Dance, Shake Dance, and the Shimmy derive from Middle Eastern, Haitian, and African dance." Her? Inventor of the belly dance weight belt and the cane dance of Hatshepsut and the perfect man catcher dress for belly dancers? Underwater belly dance?

Al Gore is more creditable, bless his privileged little heart.

Masha was pre ATS and Zumarrad pretty much covered it. I never had access to an academic database but did have such on a disc- that crashed. Delilah of the weight belt (who when I was learning was big over here) said something about belly dance being in women's DNA and American women evolving it (thru pastlife experiences?) into belly dance today. (I must find and reload my backups)