Art

[staranise]

Getting into what is art conversations made my head hurt because I didn't really understand it. Not that I completely understand it now, but studying art has given greater sight so I have a firmer base from where to construct my opinions.

The art of the abstract expressionists wasn't only about the paint splatters (though I personally enjoy the aesthetics.) It's the emotion that the picture invites you to feel, or evokes upon viewing, and there in lies the artistry.

And Belly dance is so comparable to abstract art. The lines/shapes (created with the isolations), the texture (e.g. shimmies), the movement, the emotion, the improvisation, all present in both our beloved dance form and the work of Pollock.

(I haven't even touched on the cultural aspects, because it could go on for a very long time)

You don't have to like it. but in not opening your mind to a world of expression beyond that of your own opinion, I think you're missing out.

 

[staranise]

Hmmm...my take on using art to compare it to belly dance and techniques associated with it is that photo realistic art can STILL have plenty of expression. I'm not talking about art that's so realistic you think it's a photograph because what's the point of that?

Oh, and I totally agree with you here - in my first post on this thread I was referring to the kind of realism described in your latter statement. Drawings that are copies of photographs.

 

[maria_harlequin]

Too much technique? What is it?

Getting into what is art conversations made my head hurt because I didn't really understand it. Not that I completely understand it now, but studying art has given greater sight so I have a firmer base from where to construct my opinions.

The art of the abstract expressionists wasn't only about the paint splatters (though I personally enjoy the aesthetics.) It's the emotion that the picture invites you to feel, or evokes upon viewing, and there in lies the artistry.

And Belly dance is so comparable to abstract art. The lines/shapes (created with the isolations), the texture (e.g. shimmies), the movement, the emotion, the improvisation, all present in both our beloved dance form and the work of Pollock.

(I haven't even touched on the cultural aspects, because it could go on for a very long time)

You don't have to like it. but in not opening your mind to a world of expression beyond that of your own opinion, I think you're missing out.

I KNOW abstract art isn't about just paint splatters. I took classes on abstract art in highschool and college. I don't want to wander off topic anymore, but I'm going to direct you to a few articles that best represent my point of view on art:

ARC ARTicles - ARC Philosophy Chapter II: Good Art/Bad Art - Pulling Back the Curtain - Fred Ross - Page 1/5

GoodArt.org Frequently Asked Questions

ARC ARTicles - Understanding (?) Art - Claudio Lombardo - Page 1/1

ARC ARTicles - ARC Philosophy Chapter I - Fred Ross - Page 1/6

I HAVE tried to open my mind to a "world of expression". I've visited modern art galleries, studied it both in high school and college, and I understand it. But to me, it is not art. And I think it's the Modernists that are cutting themselves away from a world of expression out there...if it isn't abstract, "new", "avant garde", or reminiscence of the founding fathers of the modernists, then it's bad and whoever does not like it is considered to be close minded not open to expression and new ideas. There are some paintings that I have seen by the Old Masters and some Living Masters that have made me cry because it was so expressive and beautiful. And there are some that have made me feel things that I have never felt before...I don't think I'm missing out on anything I'll take my Da Vinci, Michael Angelo, John William Waterhouse, Ayami Kojima, Luis Royo, Victoria Frances, Stephanie Law, Linda Bergkvist over DADA's urinal, Pollock, and Aliza Shvart's "Miscarriage Art".

And to stay on topic with belly dancing, when you have your belly dance fusionista that's throwing in a few hip drops while wearing Thai fingernails and swinging fire poi to Rage Against the Machine who gets mad because you say that what they're doing isn't belly dance and says that you're not open to new forms of expression or rejecting their creativity is like the Modernist when they get told that what they're doing isn't art. It MAY be aesthetically pleasing, be expressive, but it's not belly dance.

<--- such gorgeous, expressive, art

 

[staranise]

I KNOW abstract art isn't about just paint splatters. I took classes on abstract art in highschool and college. I don't want to wander off topic anymore, but I'm going to direct you to a few articles that best represent my point of view on art:

ARC ARTicles - ARC Philosophy Chapter II: Good Art/Bad Art - Pulling Back the Curtain - Fred Ross - Page 1/5

GoodArt.org Frequently Asked Questions

ARC ARTicles - Understanding (?) Art - Claudio Lombardo - Page 1/1

ARC ARTicles - ARC Philosophy Chapter I - Fred Ross - Page 1/6

I HAVE tried to open my mind to a "world of expression". I've visited modern art galleries, studied it both in high school and college, and I understand it. But to me, it is not art. And I think it's the Modernists that are cutting themselves away from a world of expression out there...if it isn't abstract, "new", "avant garde", or reminiscence of the founding fathers of the modernists, then it's bad and whoever does not like it is considered to be close minded not open to expression and new ideas. There are some paintings that I have seen by the Old Masters and some Living Masters that have made me cry because it was so expressive and beautiful. And there are some that have made me feel things that I have never felt before...I don't think I'm missing out on anything I'll take my Da Vinci, Michael Angelo, John William Waterhouse, Ayami Kojima, Luis Royo, Victoria Frances, Stephanie Law, Linda Bergkvist over DADA's urinal, Pollock, and Aliza Shvart's "Miscarriage Art".

And to stay on topic with belly dancing, when you have your belly dance fusionista that's throwing in a few hip drops while wearing Thai fingernails and swinging fire poi to Rage Against the Machine who gets mad because you say that what they're doing isn't belly dance and says that you're not open to new forms of expression or rejecting their creativity is like the Modernist when they get told that what they're doing isn't art. It MAY be aesthetically pleasing, be expressive, but it's not belly dance.

<--- such gorgeous, expressive, art

It's 3 in the morning here and I'm ready to go to bed, I may reply to your post in a new thread tomorrow in the off topic section of the forum.

But just one question;
the metaphorical dancer you presented is not doing bellydance, but she is still dancing, yes?
I'm just confused as to how art can be defined as something so narrow. But I will read those links when I'm more awake, and perhaps they can explain.

oh and please check out my deviant art gallery (though I haven't uploaded much of my recent work). Many of the artists you mentioned are my inspirations as well. I've been studying Linda Bergkvist's digital painting tutorials for a while, but I am definately developing my own style.

nonipony on deviantART

 

[maria_harlequin]

It's 3 in the morning here and I'm ready to go to bed, I may reply to your post in a new thread tomorrow in the off topic section of the forum.

But just one question;
the metaphorical dancer you presented is not doing bellydance, but she is still dancing, yes?
I'm just confused as to how art can be defined as something so narrow. But I will read those links when I'm more awake, and perhaps they can explain.

oh and please check out my deviant art gallery (though I haven't uploaded much of my recent work). Many of the artists you mentioned are my inspirations as well. I've been studying Linda Bergkvist's digital painting tutorials for a while, but I am definately developing my own style.

nonipony on deviantART

My definition for art may seem narrow (just like my definition for belly dance) but the art itself certainly isn't narrow...I mean, just look at all the different artists out there and belly dancers and all the different ways of interpretation, expression, and use of media! Just because a definition may seem narrow for anything whether it means art or dance doesn't mean the subject itself is narrow.

And I'm glad that you're going to be reading the articles They're very educating no matter what your views may be.

 

[khanjar]

Art, I am at an art college studying applied art, and it is a constant source of confusion all the definitions of art, and all the historical writings by people who thought they knew what they were talking about just gives me a headache, in fact I am dodging art theory now, it is that much of a stress.

I have come to the conclusion, that art is in the eye of the beholder, it is not something that can be defined, if a viewer likes it, then they are entitled to call that something art, it pleases them.

But art is expression and anyone who creatively expresses themself, are being free and true to themselves, that is all that is needed, what is required of the self. Attaching the label art to something, might limit it into yet another box society seems to like.

Me being me, I need to understand where things we consider in our modern day originally come from, I explore words and above all things, I would like to know the origin of the word art, what, did it originally mean when it was first coined, as it occurs with man's history of translations and the chinese whispers of teaching, things are lost, things become other things and the original context fades from sight.

Ooo dear, I have just thought of a subject, which will annoy my theory of art professors, I am going to study the origin of the word Art, and then take my understandings from there.

But, it does occur, the word art was designed to be undefineable, so as to keep us guessing and there producing and seeking.

 

[Dhuma]

Etymology is a beautiful thing:

Online Etymology Dictionary

Online Etymology Dictionary

 

[Shanazel]

Soo.. are you saying that only work that is "gorgeous" and "beautiful" is art, Maria? Serious question, I'm not trying to be snarky. How do you feel about Munch, Bosch? I believe you mentioned you didn't care for Picasso; are you unmoved by Guernica? Do you believe it isn't art because it is modern expression and isn't beautiful in the classic sense?

 

[Ariadne]

Art, I am at an art college studying applied art, and it is a constant source of confusion all the definitions of art, and all the historical writings by people who thought they knew what they were talking about just gives me a headache, in fact I am dodging art theory now, it is that much of a stress.

I have come to the conclusion, that art is in the eye of the beholder, it is not something that can be defined, if a viewer likes it, then they are entitled to call that something art, it pleases them.

Oh... I remember those classes and the discussions on what was and was not art. The number of the class that believed in the idea of artistic freedom and how they could do whatever they wanted and it was art. The other half of the class that talked about art being a matter of the audience and that only that which was made for the purpose of fine art rather then "crass commercialism" counted. Our teacher who was a successful artist who had worked in the field for years just smiled and let us talk ourselves out and then told us the truth as he had found it from experience; "art is whatever the customer says it is." We protested of course. What about the ideal's we had been taught? What about the illusive pursuit of perfection? What about the loftiness that was true art? But you know what, after years of experience under my own belt I have found out that he was right and we were wrong. Imagine that.

Applying it to bellydance the question isn't whether something counts as dance (art) but what exactly "bellydance" is. To some it is simply a medium of dance and anything in that medium (movement vocabulary) is bellydance just as anyone who uses paint is a painter. To some it is a type of dance that originates from and is influenced by a large area of the world (Asia Minor, North Africa, and the Middle East) like some use only oil paint or watercolors. To still others it is a style, Raks Sharki Egyptian Dance, and anything that does not originate from this source does not count just as there are styles like Impressionism or Dadaism that have a very specific style and look to them. As far as the customer is concerned they are all right.

The real question is that just as there is good and bad art there is good and bad dance but do the customers know enough to tell the difference? Probably not. That doesn't change their role however and if all they have seen so far is crayon drawings is it surprising?

 

[khanjar]

Exactly what you said Ariadne, the customer, is always right, and they vote with their purse, unless one is in the position of creating art with no expectation of monetary gain. Personally, I create what interests me, I try to string together a few words, thoughts and feelings that gave the inspiration for my creation, and let others decide whether they like it or not, at the end of the day, they can purchase it, or walk away, just like any other type of business.

What I don't agree with, is the so called art critics, and their ability to make or break an artist, Greenberg is my pet hate, I despise everything that guy has written, whereas Alloway, I do have some time for, the deciding factor between the two, was the arrogance of Greenberg.

The same is with dance, belly dance, we may argue all the minutae about what belly dance is, but the audience, they can only like it or dislike it, they devoid of belly dance training, they do not generally notice what is good and what is bad, as all they are concerned about, is getting their money's worth, have they been entertained.

The search for perfection in dance, is exactly the same as with other arts, painting for example, it is us that seek the perfection, as all we can do is improve on what we already know, to keep the art alive within our veins and cause us to quest further, but to the viewer, do they care.