Dancing with Zills...

[mahsati_janan]

I have 2 instructional dvds, one is Killer Ziller by Michelle Joyce and the second is Bellydance with zills with Elsa. Elsa is using switching hands, like with triples she does RLR LRL RLR LRL. And Michelle is using one leading hand, like RLR RLR RLR RLR. I would like to ask what style do you think is better, or which one do you prefer?

My suggestion is to learn both ways. I teach my students to do their finger cymbal 3s as:

1) RLR RLR RLR RLR
2) LRL LRL LRL LRL
3) RLR LRL RLR LRL

To me, it generally sounds more consistent when playing starting with the same hand each time. This is because pairs of finger cymbals have slightly different sounds, so the sound pattern you make will be different if you alternate by switching leads than if you play with a lead hand. For people like me who have a very good high range of hearing, the difference is generally very obvious. For most people, they may not be able to hear the difference depending on the specific tone of their cymbals.

 

[goddessyasaman]

I learned to play the zills years ago, yet I don't dance with them most of the time, I like watching other dancers with them, I really love to see ATS dancers with them, when I perform ATS I play zills when in a group, yet not solo, i just get into my dancing and the spirit of my moves and in my style hand expressions are a big thing so zills are out for the most part.

 

[*Nila*]

My suggestion is to learn both ways. I teach my students to do their finger cymbal 3s as:

1) RLR RLR RLR RLR
2) LRL LRL LRL LRL
3) RLR LRL RLR LRL

To me, it generally sounds more consistent when playing starting with the same hand each time. This is because pairs of finger cymbals have slightly different sounds, so the sound pattern you make will be different if you alternate by switching leads than if you play with a lead hand. For people like me who have a very good high range of hearing, the difference is generally very obvious. For most people, they may not be able to hear the difference depending on the specific tone of their cymbals.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I noticed the sound of right hand playing and left hand playing is different ( in my case mainly because of cymbals which have rounded elastic, which slides on my fingers and just right hand and left hand can´t play exactly the same )....I´m curious how it will sound with the new ( I hope better ones ) zills, which I´ll buy soon....but I guess your point is right...

And what do you think about more complicated patterns...Like 123 1 12345 ( can´t remember the name of this one right now:think: ) With switching hands it would be RLR L RLRLR LRL R LRLRL. With leading hand it would be RLR R RLRLR ..? Do you think it will affect the consistency of sound too?

Uhh, I´m confused with this

 

[mahsati_janan]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I noticed the sound of right hand playing and left hand playing is different ( in my case mainly because of cymbals which have rounded elastic, which slides on my fingers and just right hand and left hand can´t play exactly the same )....I´m curious how it will sound with the new ( I hope better ones ) zills, which I´ll buy soon....but I guess your point is right...

And what do you think about more complicated patterns...Like 123 1 12345 ( can´t remember the name of this one right now:think: ) With switching hands it would be RLR L RLRLR LRL R LRLRL. With leading hand it would be RLR R RLRLR ..? Do you think it will affect the consistency of sound too?

Uhh, I´m confused with this

It can. If you are looking for consistency of sound or consistency of movement across a performing group, then you will need to play the pattern the same each time. I can play all of my rhythms and patterns with either hand as lead or switching leads. I only use switching leads when I am specifically looking for the sound pattern to change on a longer interval. Using the example you listed above, 123 1 12345. The sounds pattern each set of zills make is R=^ and L=*

Right hand dominant: RLR R RLRLR: ^*^ ^ ^*^*^
Left hand dominant: LRL L LRLRL: *^* * *^*^*
Switching between patterns: RLR R RLRLR LRL L LRLRL: ^*^ ^ ^*^*^ *^* * *^*^*

That keeps the sound consistent. The two with dominant hands hold the patterns of higher and lower tones the same with each repetition of the pattern. Any of the three above will give a consistent pattern, but without a dominant hand, the pattern is longer.

If you choose to play the same pattern with no hand dominance at all, you could play it as:

Switching each strike: RLR L RLRLR LRL R LRLRL

To make it even more interesting, there are multiple sounds you can make with your finger cymbals, so you can also switch up any pattern by changing the types of strike you use. For example, if you look at it in terms of a drum rhythm, you can choose to play all of your dums as a full double strike and all of your filler teks/kas as an edge strike. This will make the pattern have even more auditory interest.

As a soloist, you have more options in your finger cymbal playing because you can change at any time, so if your hands tire, you can change leads or styles of play. In a group, you are generally all trying to make the same sound pattern.

[I absolutely love playing finger cymbals. There are many different techniques out there and I am always working to learn more.]

 

[Ariadne]

That's it, now I want you to teach me zilling!
I notice you have some fan veil instruction DVDs, any chance of one on zills? If not do you take long distance students?

 

[mahsati_janan]

That's it, now I want you to teach me zilling!
I notice you have some fan veil instruction DVDs, any chance of one on zills? If not do you take long distance students?

Awww...thanks! I have 2 fan veil dvds and a basic technique dvd, but nothing on zills right now. I have been considering it at the request of my students/workshop attendees, but there are some great resources out there already to get folks started on finger cymbals, so I haven't decided yet.

I actually do accept long distance students if we can work out a good video format for working together. If you decide you might be interested in it, just send me an email anytime.

 

[Cyriine]

I love Zills, i'm not sure if someone has mentioned it but where do Zills originate from? As in who first started using them in dance?

 

[Jane]

http://www.bellydanceforums.net/other-dance-stuff/5860-history-zills.html

 

[*Nila*]

It can. If you are looking for consistency of sound or consistency of movement across a performing group, then you will need to play the pattern the same each time. I can play all of my rhythms and patterns with either hand as lead or switching leads. I only use switching leads when I am specifically looking for the sound pattern to change on a longer interval. Using the example you listed above, 123 1 12345. The sounds pattern each set of zills make is R=^ and L=*

Right hand dominant: RLR R RLRLR: ^*^ ^ ^*^*^
Left hand dominant: LRL L LRLRL: *^* * *^*^*
Switching between patterns: RLR R RLRLR LRL L LRLRL: ^*^ ^ ^*^*^ *^* * *^*^*

That keeps the sound consistent. The two with dominant hands hold the patterns of higher and lower tones the same with each repetition of the pattern. Any of the three above will give a consistent pattern, but without a dominant hand, the pattern is longer.

If you choose to play the same pattern with no hand dominance at all, you could play it as:

Switching each strike: RLR L RLRLR LRL R LRLRL

To make it even more interesting, there are multiple sounds you can make with your finger cymbals, so you can also switch up any pattern by changing the types of strike you use. For example, if you look at it in terms of a drum rhythm, you can choose to play all of your dums as a full double strike and all of your filler teks/kas as an edge strike. This will make the pattern have even more auditory interest.

As a soloist, you have more options in your finger cymbal playing because you can change at any time, so if your hands tire, you can change leads or styles of play. In a group, you are generally all trying to make the same sound pattern.

[I absolutely love playing finger cymbals. There are many different techniques out there and I am always working to learn more.]

Thank you very much for your explanation, this is what I needed I´m just starting with my zills, so it´s all difficult for me, and I´m not sure if my playing will be ever good enough to perform with it ( I think I´m not musician at all ), but I like it a lot, and want to know the best way....
I guess I will try to train playing using leading hands also. Not just switching.

 

[Cyriine]

Thanks for the link Jane =]

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Not taking anything away from Mahsati, but Michelle Joyce has a terrific DVD called Killer Ziller, and it's fantastic. Cory Zamora also teaches zills with her Beginning Bellydance which is all about arms and hands, with zills at the same time, giving you a feel for movement with the zills.

 

[Yame]

I think I might need to get myself Cory's arms and zills DVD. I have been hardcore working on my arms, and they've improved a lot, but as soon as I have zills on, my arms regress 1 or 2 years. It's not that I can't zill and dance at the same time, because I can, but the quality of my dancing isn't as good with the zills on, especially when it comes to arms.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I think I might need to get myself Cory's arms and zills DVD. I have been hardcore working on my arms, and they've improved a lot, but as soon as I have zills on, my arms regress 1 or 2 years. It's not that I can't zill and dance at the same time, because I can, but the quality of my dancing isn't as good with the zills on, especially when it comes to arms.

Then Cory's DVD is for you because she really focuses on this. I have the same problem that I am furiously working on for an upcoming event in which I am zilling.

 

[Ariadne]

Does Cory teach both styles of playing though?

I did a lot of research on zilling styles before starting and everything I found was either one or the other, either using a leading hand or alternating, not both. I own Elsa Leandros "Bellydance with Zils" which does drill with movements using the alternating style. I also own Artemis' "Zill Speak" which teaches either the left or right dominant hand zilling along with music theory. There are a lot of really good materials out there for learning to zill as long as you want to learn one or the other and there seems to be a lot of strong feelings about why their way is right and the other isn't.

I want to do it all though.

What I wouldn't give for one good instruction DVD that not only drilled with movement but covered music theory, both styles of zilling including alternating between the two, zilling the actual drum patterns, and how to use the different styles of strikes to create unique sounding patterns and then drilling them!

No I'm not picky at all. :lol:

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Does Cory teach both styles of playing though?

I did a lot of research on zilling styles before starting and everything I found was either one or the other, either using a leading hand or alternating, not both. I own Elsa Leandros "Bellydance with Zils" which does drill with movements using the alternating style. I also own Artemis' "Zill Speak" which teaches either the left or right dominant hand zilling along with music theory. There are a lot of really good materials out there for learning to zill as long as you want to learn one or the other and there seems to be a lot of strong feelings about why their way is right and the other isn't.

I want to do it all though.

What I wouldn't give for one good instruction DVD that not only drilled with movement but covered music theory, both styles of zilling including alternating between the two, zilling the actual drum patterns, and how to use the different styles of strikes to create unique sounding patterns and then drilling them!

No I'm not picky at all. :lol:

No, just the one style because it is a beginner video. Michelle Joyce, however, goes through a lot of the rhythms. And yes, I want it all too - I'm pretty greedy when it comes to anything with bellydance (muahahahaha!).

 

[double_frick]

Zills - the bane of my life. i have struggled with them for several years, and it was just this last year I managed to "get it", I even danced playing zills, I never thought I would get to that point.

For me it was just determination, lots of frustration and never giving in or up!

One teacher told me to go to a park or somewhere that not many people were around, and just walk and play the gallop rhythm of rlr, that didn't work until I used the method taught by my other teacher. My other teacher just drilled us and encouraged and refused to let us give up. I actually found her method of dum-es-tek, rather that RLR etc worked best for me. I just ended up getting my R & Ls all mixed up, I am totally hopeless with L & R. I have one sequence permanently etched in my brain now (dum-es-tek-es-tek dum-tek-es-tek tek es) the last tek es joins the 2 rhythms together, but you can play without that bit as it is quite fast. dum -R, es-L, tek-R. Not sure if that will help you, but it was the main thing that clicked with me.

Some people do better with RL, others with 123, others with the drum beat terminology - that is me
~Mosaic

PS: Forgot to add, that I played "air or finger zills to every piece of music I heard, and chanted the dum-es rhythm as I did. I am sure people thought I was completely mad, as i would be walking around a shopping centre doing it, or in my car, just about anywhere, and it finally all fell into place.

:shok:

omg, i think you just saved my zill-challenged belly dance life!! that seriously is so much better than the RLR! <3<3 thank you a million times! <3

 

[Zorba]

This resurrected zombie thread is actually a good one! I've been a classically trained musician all my life - I'd like to make some points:

1) Dominant vs. alternating hands: Do which ever works for YOU. I'm an alternating person. With a small amount of concentration, I can switch to leading hand - dominant or otherwise - buy why? The only exception to this are the dancers who use very different sounding Zills in each hand, they like to have different sounds for "dum" and "tek". Respect to this technique, but I don't do it myself.

2) MOVE YOUR ARMS! Do NOT stand in one place, with the Zills clutched nervously by your chest (or anywhere else) when practicing. Your Zills will become "locked" in this position, and you won't be able to play them anywhere else! If you can do snake arms with a given pattern, you're doing pretty good. Move around - even if its just a hip-bump walk. You're not planning on standing onstage in one place playing your Zills - practicing them standing still is useless.

3) "gallop", or "threes", or "triples": Please do NOT call this pattern "Triplets" - it is NOT. Triplet is a very specific musical term that is very misused by teachers and dancers alike. Yes, you can play true triplets on your Zills, but this pattern isn't common to middle eastern music.

4) Gallop, threes, or triples - AGAIN: If this is the only pattern you can play, please learn some more! Middle Eastern musicians call endless gallop "Coffee Cup" - they liken it to drinking cup after cup after cup of espresso - drives them nuts and will drive your audience nuts!

5) To truly master the instrument, it is far better to be able to think in "dum-tek-ese". Counts are fine in the beginning, but try to migrate away from same. RL nomenclature drives me nuts because I don't Zill that way - but are fine for those who do IN THE BEGINNING. Move to "drum talk" as soon as you're able - then you will start to FEEL your playing; therein lies mastery.

6) Don't have rhythm? Can't find the beat? Can't find the first beat? This actually affects more dancers than you'd think. Trying to play Zills like this is a pointless exercise. You'll need to learn the beats first. Sitting and clapping is fine for this - and DON'T GIVE UP! It *can* be done. I once had a dance sister who was like this - we'd have to clap for her when she was performing to give her the beat, and she *still* had a hard time with it. She persevered, and eventually "got it" - living proof how sheer determination can overcome anything. We were all so proud of her!

7) So with all this babble in mind - find a simple dance with a simple Zill part. Maybe your teacher has one, or you can create one. Just keep it simple. Practice. It took me 6 solid weeks of 1 hour/day practice EVERY DAY to get this simple dance to "work". That was, of course, just the beginning. Yea, I'm a musician - I could play Zills. But moving/dancing with them was an entirely different matter for this klutz - see #2!

8) What Zills to use? Whatever works for you. This will likely evolve over time. It isn't about the Zill, its about the player. I purchased a quad of Zildjians a few years ago, and find I'm reaching for them more and more - I like their versatility. But a quad of garbage can lids will teach you the basics! This latter will also have the beneficial side effect of quieting your neighborhood as everyone within a 3 block radius will "pack it out"! :lol:

9) As I continue to grow and evolve, I find my hands feel empty without my Zills. I feel that I dance better, my arm and my hand positions are better when I'm playing Zills. Old Skool masters like Cory Zamora will agree.

10) Here is a brief article on my website written by one of my instructors - who is an Old Skool dancer and as good a Zillist as you could ever hope for:

Belly Dance Mastery