Egyptian dance is a fusion - so says my teacher

[jenc]

Of african, indian and Gypsy actually.

I honestly didn't know what to say for a moment - then I reasoned that a beginner's class in an Essex village, where everyone is dancing for fun - they probably don't want to know anyway.

And I'm sure the teacher doesn't want me to disagree with her.

 

[Jane]

I'd ask her what she meant privately. She may have meant something about Egypt being part of Africa and ghawazee being decedents of the Dom diaspora from northern India. Not all belly dancers are dance ethnographers. She may welcome new info and dialogue, or she may not. Good luck!

 

[MissVega]

By my understanding, what I learned at Sahra Saeeda's Journey Through Egypt 1 and 2 (this was last April so don't quote me 100% on this lol). But the development of cabaret performance, or what we know as egyptian belly dance now is in fact a fusion from various sources and influences.

I should go back over my notes from the weekend before I open my mouth. Mahsati was there too and will probably be able to articulate/explain it better than I can .

 

[Aniseteph]

Everything is going to be a fusion unless people live in complete isolation with no external influences at all. It's the influences that are picked up on and survive vs. the ones that are rejected or just don't take long term - that's what counts. It is what it is because of the culture doing the selection, both in terms of dancers' choices and audiences' reactions.

I'm not saying it's the case here, but the "it's all a fusion anyway" argument makes me uneasy because so often it's used as a justification for doing whatever you please and calling it belly dance. Let's just hope it doesn't mean jenc is going to be swishing a big skirt about, wearing a bindi and doing Bollywood moves to Oum Kalsoum. ray:

 

[Kashmir]

A standup disagreement in class is not a good idea - but it may be worth asking her where she got her information from and pointing out that a number of respected dancers would disagree with her. If her source is Wendy B I'm sure you can point out the problems with that text

 

[jenc]

I'm not saying it's the case here, but the "it's all a fusion anyway" argument makes me uneasy because so often it's used as a justification for doing whatever you please and calling it belly dance. Let's just hope it doesn't mean jenc is going to be swishing a big skirt about, wearing a bindi and doing Bollywood moves to Oum Kalsoum. ray:

no but we are doing a so-called Bollywood number to Chaiyya Chaiyya. Here is the original as a treat for you. Oh and apparently it was written by Andrew LLoyd Weber - again I didn't say anything as I didn't have any definate information with which to counter.



I don't see any point in arguing with this woman or even trying nicely to correct her. I think you can tell when it wouldn't go down well.

i also think it is very odd to be teaching Bollywood (even in teacher's own personal version) to students who started in January and encouraging them not ot isolate when they haven't even learned how to.

I suspect I will be moving on again soon.

 

[Darshiva]

no but we are doing a so-called Bollywood number to Chaiyya Chaiyya. Here is the original as a treat for you. Oh and apparently it was written by Andrew LLoyd Weber - again I didn't say anything as I didn't have any definate information with which to counter.



I don't see any point in arguing with this woman or even trying nicely to correct her. I think you can tell when it wouldn't go down well.

i also think it is very odd to be teaching Bollywood (even in teacher's own personal version) to students who started in January and encouraging them not ot isolate when they haven't even learned how to.

I suspect I will be moving on again soon.

But I'm certain my ex-teacher still lives in Echuca... I honestly thought that teachers that whacked-out were blessedly rare!

 

[khanjar]

Egyptian dance could very well be a fusion, but without sufficient evidence to say it is we have to stick with what we have which is no evidence beyond what is actually practiced where it comes from.

But there is a difference between evidence and speculation, as for the later anyone can speculate and I do, I have my own speculations based upon research into specific areas of history, not specifically belly dance history but history from the region and as it is something I cannot prove, beyond my line of thought that speculation licenses me and me only from a historical perspective, others will have to find their own track.

But in BD classes I have also learned Bollywood style, which kind of made me question to myself exactly what I was learning, but Indian it was, belly dance it was not and I know the difference.

As of classes in little villages what can one expect really, who is their target student and what is it that student wants, pretty costumes and fun with the girlies or learn a specific cultural dance ?

 

[Sophia Maria]

I would call it a fusion--as Aniseteph says

Everything is going to be a fusion unless people live in complete isolation with no external influences at all. It's the influences that are picked up on and survive vs. the ones that are rejected or just don't take long term - that's what counts.

Egyptian as we know it today has elements of folkloric dances and also of dance forms like ballet. The costumes and the movements have changed over the years with influences from different cultures and fashions. That doesn't make dance any less legitimate, it's just that it's not logistically possible to have a dance that is NOT a fusion of various influences. But it's also not enough to just throw your hands up in the air and say, "Bah! What does it matter? Everything's fusion!" Try to look up all the info you can get your hands on...and then it's always good to have these kinds of discussions, because you always learn something new and informative. I'm always learning

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Andrew Lloyd Webber did NOT write Chaiyya Chaiyya, just FYI.

Chaiyya Chaiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jenc]

Yes I know but unfortunately at the time I had no concrete information with which to counter. Some of the information was correct like it being used in the Commnwelth games and the famous film sequence on the train. It's much harder, isn't it, to counter partial misinformation.

Lloyd Weber PRODUCED the musical Bombay Dreams in which it featured on the British stage.

 

[Shakti]

Glad you picked up on that Aziyade. A version appears in Bollywood Dreams soundtrack. The original arrangement from the Dil Se is the better one, ie the train video..

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Andrew Lloyd Webber did NOT write Chaiyya Chaiyya, just FYI.

Chaiyya Chaiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly what I was going to say (I've come in a tad late on this discussion). Webber merely reenacted the famous train sequence from Dil Se in his aforementioned stage play. A.R. Rehman is my favorite Bollywood composer, and my first reaction was the STRONG desire to KICK jenc's teacher in the patootie, but society frowns upon patootie-kicking. -_-

It really chaps my hide when misinformed people continue to spread the misinformation they themselves have learned, or use false stereotypical notions about bellydance as a marketing ploy for their classes, workshops, DVD's, etc. >:/

 

[Tarik Sultan]

The problem is because we are dealing with an aspect of a culture about which as a whole we are largely uninformed, very often we find elements of truth and then exaggerate them or take them out of context. This is a perfect example.

Egyptian dance begins with the folk dance, or if you will, social dance. That foundation is quintessentially African in nature. Understanding that it didn't come from somewhere in Africa, but that it had always been there as Egypt is a part of Africa and therefore it's related to other dance styles in nearby regions of the continent. The articulation of the torso, waves, undulations, twisting, shaking, twirling of the hips are reoccuring themes in dances all across the continent and so what we see in Egypt is a regional variation on continental theme.

The arms on the other hand are of Asian origin as can bee seen when you look at Persian and other Central Asian dance styles. As far as Indian Dance is concerned, I've seen no evidence other than the myth of Gypsy origins to support the claim. What I have seen of various Indian Dances shows that it received elemets of Central Asian styles. The spread of Indian influences went in a west to east direction as can be seen in the dances of Cambodia, Bali, Thailand for example.

The performance aspect has the most foreign influences. The use of space, dramatic elements etc are all of European origin. However, it has to be understood that what makes a dance is not only the movements, but the spirit and personality of the culture. Therefore, Egyptian dance retained its spirit, personality, character while absorbing the elements they wanted, on their own terms. It is this spirit/identity/body language/cultural expression that we have to assimilate if we want to express Egyptian dance in a way that has a look and feel of cultural authenticity.

 

[jenc]

I must say I have always had problems with the spread by gypsies theory because no one has ever explained how they think that the dance went from the margins of society, right through and uup to the top. That is apart from the fact that the dances the gypsies are supposed to have spread are all different and the only similarities seem to be what has been imported by ATS and other dancers who wre determined that the links were there to begin with. For example, hand floreos seem to have been borrowed from flamenco and then used to say that BD is related to flamenco.

 

[khanjar]

Perhaps it is there is a lot of romanticism attached to this dance, so much romanticism that for some the reality is obscured, but there are people that have a problem with reality and so do their best to live in fantasy, which is living life on their own terms, not the real terms.

But for me I try to adhere to the originality of this dance, where we most definitely know where it comes from and the culture present that still dances this way, anything else, is frankly disrespectful.

But because a dance teacher says Egyptian dance is fusion, that is not an indication that Egyptian dance should become something else by the inclusion of other cultural styles, for it strikes me that in saying Egyptian dance is fusion then that teacher is intent on adding other styles under the name of BD.

 

[jenc]

Also with great scientific discoveries and theories, several people can have the same idea at the same time. I believe that the Russians have a contender for the inventor of wireless,and there were certainly others with the same idea as Darwin at the time.

Yet when it comes to dance, we are expected to believe that similarities definately mean influence, as if it were not possible for different societies to come up with the same sorts of moves. given that all dance is likely to have started with a drum, and that there are a finite number of moves that can be made with the body - it is more surprisinf thatdances differ.

 

[Meera]

Andrew LLoyd Weber - again I didn't say anything as I didn't have any definate information with which to counter.



I don't see any point in arguing with this woman or even trying nicely to correct her. I think you can tell when it wouldn't go down well.

Andrew Llyod Webber didn't write it, its one of Ar Rahmans most famous songs!

 

[jenc]

Has anyone seen Dil Se?