Male dancers denied Egyptian permits...
- Thread starter Zorba
- Start date
Caroline_afifi
New member
It doesnt actually surprise me. A few years ago we had the foreign dancers ban too. A majority of dancers permits are actually held by dancers who form part of troupes in the likes of Hurghada and Sharm etc. there are lots of men whom perform as part of these troupes etc. I wonder if it will affect them too? Asmahan and other dancers also have male dancers as part of their show.
It doesnt say whether or not it is aimed a solo male performers or male dancers in general. Does anyone know?
It doesnt say whether or not it is aimed a solo male performers or male dancers in general. Does anyone know?
Mark_Balahadia
New member
Doesn't surprise me either. Egypt is an conservative country. Anyway, as far as I know...you don't need a permit to perform in Lebanon (although a foreign dancer might need a work permit).
Last edited:
Tarik Sultan
New member
I'm going to stay out of this one. I'd only be tempted to state obvious truths and piss a whole bunch of people off. Seems like asses such as myself have a talent for that! I will say one thing though, my video of Tito sure gets a lot of play around the world. I should charge the boy an agent's fee!
taheya
New member
I will say one thing though, my video of Tito sure gets a lot of play around the world. I should charge the boy an agent's fee!
Are you feeling oppressed Tarik??!!
Freedom of speech is a great thing and I have wholeheartedly agreed with everything you have written on this subject! Sometimes you have to offend people to defend what is right. As for this article it makes me so sad that Egyptian govenrment are proposing yet another limit on its bellydancers! I am so worried that they will do everything in their power to kill off this dance form! Do they not realise that the dancers all over the world have great respect for the egyptian dancers who are the greatest dancers in the world in my opinion.. that includes men and women!!
Tarik Sultan
New member
Are you feeling oppressed Tarik??!!
As for this article it makes me so sad that Egyptian govenrment are proposing yet another limit on its bellydancers! I am so worried that they will do everything in their power to kill off this dance form! Do they not realise that the dancers all over the world have great respect for the egyptian dancers who are the greatest dancers in the world in my opinion.. that includes men and women!!
The problem is that I don't speak to exercise my ego but to really share and there are people on this forum who refuse to understand that. There is nothing I would say here that I haven't said before. I know what the problem is in Egypt in regards to this current situation, I know why it's being resisted and why it will not succeed. It will just turn into another drawn out back and forth of what people would like, what they think it should be instead of really listening and understanding what IS and how it would need to be handled to actually work.
Previously in another thread I explained pretty much what this article hinted at and I was accused of being self serving, delusional, uninformed, hateful and CRUEL. My last session of tangling ass with A'isha just showed me how much time and energy I often waste on here. Mind you, my feelings aren't hurt and I don't regret anything I said to her because it was all true. However, my intention is not to come here to have arguments and if certain individuals are not able to see that as valid as their points of view may be, there are other perspectives that should be taken into consideration, then I am wasting my time.
Caroline_afifi
New member
Are you only on here for the sake of one or two people?
I dont think so!!
As well as the people who do sign in, have you seen the amount of people who are just visiting?
This is a learning centre for many people so dont give up the the basis of one or two who appear unmovable.
I and probably many others look forward to reading your posts.
Back to the subject, why do you think they are doing this??
Tarik Sultan
New member
You have a point.
I know
What a trickster you are!:naghty:
Okay, at the risk of offending some, the problem is homophobia. Its dues in large part to the way Arab and Muslim manhood was slandered by the colonial powers during the 19th century when the Ottoman Empire was seen as a threat to Europe and an obstacle to European expansion in the Middle East.
The stereotype of the bisexual Arab and Turk was created to make them look morally inferior to the Christian West. Yes there was and is bisexuality in the Middle East, but no more so than exists in Europe truth be told. Never the less, in the East the concepts of honor and reputation are everything and affects people's lives in ways that we can't begin to imagine here in the West. In our society someone slanders your reputation you deny it, fight it or sue for slander. In the East, to be accused is to be just as good as guilty. Therefore, they run like the devil at the hint of anything that could be used as an excuse to call their manhood into question.
The reason why the claimants are falling flat on their faces is because of the way they are going about it. Instead of calming the fears, they are aggravating them. Using feminine sounding names, wearing sexually ambiguous costumes and flaming out is not the way to deal with the situation. What you need is to have men how project a masculine image that they can relate to to counteract the stereotypes and their fears. Tito comes as close as there is right now, but at times, he does deliberately push the envelope for the same reason Dina does. It might be a way of expressing the frustration with the stupidity, but in the long run it's not the way to go because they are the ones who have the power to say yea or nay, so you really do want to get on their good side.
So far, these people are not seeing anything to allay their fears. Dancers in Lebanon like Musbah and guys in Turkey and Greece who look more female than male don't help either. They do not want to see that in Egypt because that is not the image of themselves and their men that they want the world to see.
Like I tried to explain before, Egyptians do NOT want to see a man projecting a feminine, girly, effeminate, androgynous, whatever you want to call it, energy on stage. Whether people want to argue over whether or not its Baladi or Sharki, the only way a male dancer will have a chance in Egypt is if they see enough guys who look like guys dancing in a way that does not compromise their maleness. It will require addressing the fear directly and contradicting it. Tito is a good start, but its going to take more than him, and his little thing bending over with his jiggling ass in the air doesn't help things. They need to see more guys who look like guys and don't resort to silly little stunts to push people's buttons for it to work and thus far, I see no evidence that anyone has such wisdom.
Caroline_afifi
New member
What a trickster you are!:naghty:
I know... very naughty.
Yes true and i agree but the men there hold hands walking along the street and give each other kisses and talk in terms of real endearments to each other. To the Western (more specifically UK) male army eye etc (and non) this looks gay.
The sterotype of the all male environment and the all female environment and what kind of things happen etc.
[/QUOTE]
All sounds feasible to me but I feel there is something more to it than this. The Egyptian government often works in such as way as one person makes the desicion and they are a friend of bla bla... not on the basis of mass opinion and pressure.
These were the rumours when it was the foreign dancers ban too.
Someone had a word in someones ear etc.
I am sure whatever happens it will all come out shortly. I will certainly be having a snoop when I go back in two weeks.
Tarik Sultan
New member
Yes, but these same guys know that when they are in the West these types of behaviors are a big no, no. And yes, these are some of the things that have been taken out of context by westerners to slander the sexuality of Middle Eastern men. Sometimes the affection shared between men is indicative of nothing more than affection, sometimes there is more going on beneath the surface. One can't make general assumptions.
It is understood in it's own environment. People have a very human need for affection. The danger though is what might happen if men and women are allowed to be this close. The fear of illegitimate sexual relations and the resulting illegitimate births are seen as being far more destructive to the fabric of society than two guys who might be getting it on on the down low. As long as it is discrete and everyone conforms to the social roles, i.e. get married have kids etc, no one asks questions or stirs the dirt. What they do not take kindly to is having it thrown up in their faces blatantly.
I know exactly what you are talking about and there is that element to it as well, there always is, even with regards to the restrictions female dancers have to deal with. However, the bigger issue here is FEAR. Fear of what types of guys will want to perform, fear of the message it will send, fear of what people will say, fear that they will be accused of promoting and encouraging immorality, fear about the possible fundamentalist backlash. FEAR. No doubt there was some individual who dropped a dime in someone's ear and fanned the flames. I've had it happen to me on several occasions. It sucks, but that is the reality and also why it takes a great deal of wisdom if one is going to heal with it. Just think of a cat stuck in a tree. The damn thing is scared shi*less to begin with. If you come at it barking orders and trying to tug and pull at it, it's going to panic and start scratching and biting. You have to assuage it's fears and get it to trust you before it will allow you to get near enough to help it down. These official types in Egypt need to be handled with kid's gloves. You're never going to get them to listen to you if you show up looking like their worse fears realized.
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
Same here. Chin up Tarik, chin up! You rock.
Tarik Sultan
New member
Nahhh. I prefer to look down. That way I don't step in dog doo.
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
You gotta point there.
Keeps the hem of your skirt outta the dog doo too! {Grinnin, Duckin, and Runnin'! :lol:}
Caroline_afifi
New member
You make me laugh everytime! :lol:
Outi
New member
I highly recommend Yasmina's Journey of Desire DVD.
Catherine reviews the DVD, Journey of Desire, for the Gilded Serpent
Caroline_afifi
New member
ha ha.. getting a permit is not a journey, it is an ordeal!
Outi, do you personally know any men who have been through this process?
Yes, Yasmina's DVD is very good.
But seriously, it seems silly to require a permit for something in the arts. We as dancers can inspire, but we can't truly harm anything but someone's sensibilities unless we are doing some sort of politically-inspired and inspiring dancing.
Egypt isn't concerned that men might create something more political. Though I suppose someone somewhere could come up with something incomprehensible (to me) about endangering someone's soul?
Very sad that anywhere in the world people would find it necessary to try and limit something harmless (IMO) someone else wants to do instead of simply not watching what they don't want to watch.
Men should dance. Women should dance. People should dance. And the permit system is foolish.
~Saqra
But seriously, it seems silly to require a permit for something in the arts. We as dancers can inspire, but we can't truly harm anything but someone's sensibilities unless we are doing some sort of politically-inspired and inspiring dancing.
Egypt isn't concerned that men might create something more political. Though I suppose someone somewhere could come up with something incomprehensible (to me) about endangering someone's soul?
Very sad that anywhere in the world people would find it necessary to try and limit something harmless (IMO) someone else wants to do instead of simply not watching what they don't want to watch.
Men should dance. Women should dance. People should dance. And the permit system is foolish.
~Saqra