"The Breakthrough Fusion Competition"

[LynetteSerpent]

Thanks for the compliment, I guess. That last post was a little comfusing but I wanted to address a point about dicussing supposedly controversial issues. If an issue is controversial that implies that the discussion regarding it is not over.

What content should be included? This discussion is similar to a controversy (oh no!) that we had years ago between one of our reviewers, Bobbie, and Dunia of DDF.

Bobby thought DDF should have auditions
Review of Desert Dance 2000 for the Gilded Serpent

Dunia thought the stage should be open to everyone. Bobby agreed but thought they should rehearse or work on their act before they got on stage
Dunia's response to Bobbie for the Gilded Serpent

GS is also a venue. Should every one in the community be allowed on stage? Should everyone in the community be allowed to contribute to GS? I believe that the diversity of our community is fascinating. Hopefully with the help of our generous volunteer staff and advisors we can show that diversity but that it is also well rehearsed or proofed. By the way, we need more help editing. We have some quality material in the queue, would anyone like to help?

 

[Rosanna]

FYI, Yasmina Ramzy has just addressed this issues on GS (thanks Lynette!!).
While she definitely has her own artistic preferences (I should know, I taught at her school and was in her dance company), its great that she supports using a wide variety of themes, narratives, and aesthetics in bellydance.

Yasmina Ramzy's 3rd Column for the Gilded Serpent, Journal for Bellydance, fusion, taqsim, travel study

I guess now I should reply to Aisha's comments...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

FYI, Yasmina Ramzy has just addressed this issues on GS (thanks Lynette!!).
While she definitely has her own artistic preferences (I should know, I taught at her school and was in her dance company), its great that she supports using a wide variety of themes, narratives, and aesthetics in bellydance.

Yasmina Ramzy's 3rd Column for the Gilded Serpent, Journal for Bellydance, fusion, taqsim, travel study

I guess now I should reply to Aisha's comments...

Dear Rosanna,
I am fine, either way. I have had this same conversation so many times, I am surprised my responses do not actually post themselves onto the forum by now!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Rosanna]

Hi Aisha. Ok, I'm getting a better sense of where you’re coming from. You clearly have a VERY restrictive definition of what bellydance is. I can see how you've come to this definition, and while I think neither yours, nor my definitions are "Correct" or "Wrong", I think a using the term "bellydance" in a broader sense is more practical and descriptive. At this point I should also mention that I’m really not pointing these arguments at you, I’m just taking your comments as an opportunity to talk about general issues in the bellydance scene. So, my reasons for using an inclusive definition of “bellydance.”

We do need a term to connect the common movement thread throughout different dance styles that use basic movements derived from the historically middle eastern dance form. By basic/essential movements I mean: shimmies, accents, fig 8s, circles, slides, pyramids/vs, waves (see discussion below on how these are actually unique to bellydance). No matter what you call tribal fusion, ATS, ITS or whatever, these movements are shared with middle eastern dance. In terms of movement, these dances are MUCH more similar to each other than to other dance forms. Can you propose a different term that adequately describes this common ground? “Experimental Fusion” does not even allude to what movements I use or what has influenced my style. Even though the style has departed pretty far from its historical origins, you can’t deny what has inspired it come from.

“A few years back now, I did exactly that and it was never thought to be a techno dance or Goth dance or Tribal dance that was created by westerners. It means something that comes from the Middle East, even to those who may not have an education in it to back their thinking up.”

I’m not saying that gothic dance= bellydance. I’m saying that bellydance is the “Class” of dance, while gothic is the “Order”. Within bellydance-gothic is other style “Families” (industrial, trance, wiccan, I’m not entirely familiar with them, but you get the idea). I totally agree that these new fangled fusion forms are not indicative or reflective of the ENTIRETY of bellydance . I would never say that you get a good grasp of what bellydancing as a whole is by watching one of my performances. Hence, I think it is absolutely necessary to modify the label bellydance by using other appropriate terms (such as “hip hop bellydance fusion” or “jazz bellydance fusion”). There is a caveat that there must be a SIGNIFICANT amount of “essential bellydance movements” included in these fusion forms. And this is where I can see peoples issue with a lot of bellydance fusion performances. WAAAAAAYYY too often people throw in 1 terribly done hip circle and think they are justified in including bellydance in the name of what they do (oh say “bellydance-picking-my-nose fusion”). That being said, at cabaret events I’ve seen performances equally lacking in bellydance moves, so this isn’t unique to fusion!!

“ do not just call Egyptian style belly dance. I also call Turkish and Lebanese styles belly dance, and off-shoots of those three basic styles that retain the cultural roots of the dances as they have evolved from these three forms in countries like Syria and Morocco.”

Apologies for the confusion, I was using “Egyptian” as an example, not saying that only Egyptian style is bellydance, just so I didn’t have to list all of the countries every time.

“Essential movements, as you call; them, are found in dances all over the world. The movements themselves do not have any special and specific connection to belly dance alone. What a belly dancer does as movement can be seen in many dances. It is the cultural essence of the dance that makes it what it is.”

What dances are shimmies, tummy flutters, figure 8s found it? Yes there are some vague similarities – wrist circles look almost similar to floreos in flamenco to the untrained eye, hula does hip circles, and kathak arm movements sometimes can look somewhat similar to those done in bellydance. But if you look past the gross generalization that “they both move their hips” the movements and technique involved are completely different. Its like saying flamenco and bellydance are the same dance because one plays castanets and the other plays finger cymbals!!!! The technique is completely different between hula and bellydance hip circles (no mater what type of hip circles you do in bellydance). Furthermore, the structure of the bellydance is completely different. No other dance form uses precise isolations and layering like bellydance does. This again is where the most similarities in movement are found between different “Orders” within the “Clas”s Bellydance, which is why ultimately they are separated based on movement from other dance Orders (hula, flamenco, etc.).

“such as American oriental, Tribal Fusion, American Tribal, Goth, etc. None of these is belly dance,”

Ok, given you’re definition, I would have to agree that AmCab would also not be bellydance.

“You know, I could get a little cheezy here too, and suggest you ask yourself why you are trying to foist off a falsehood on the general public, but I have been trying to keep our conversation civil and adult. You actually have no idea who I prefer to dance for, though Arabs are one of my favorite audiences, along with seasoned dancers who know how to see the dance. The reason is that I think they have a broader appreciation of what I am presenting. I think you also have no business deciding for me who I choose to dance for. I like all audiences but have preferences, as I am sure you do. I could get snotty and imply that Arabs would laugh you out of the room, but that is rather mean and purposeless. Can we continue as adults who are giving each other credit for some intelligence?”

I apologize Aisha that you took this personally. I used your comments to present arguments to everyone here. I know many people gear their performances towards Arab audiences and I did not mean to imply that you prefer to dance for Arabs.

I think assuming that Arabs will not like fusion is insulting and demeaning to them. You are assuming that they cannot appreciate other dance forms, which is discriminatory. Give Arabs more credit.

Also, please watch my dancing before insulting it. Just like you cannot judge the quality of dancing from photos, you can likewise not judge the quality of my dancing from my opinions.

“It is not belly dance, but to see what I mean, just look at the ways in which Reda translated ballet in order to create something brand new. It is not ballet any more. It is Reda's creation and very much indicative of the Egyptian world view. The same thing happens in the west.”

Ok, here’s my big issue. What if Randa Kamal decided to “view hip hop through an Egyptian lense” and created a choreography with hip hop elements? This choreography, hypothetically, also happens to be exactly the same as one done by oh, say, some dancer from New York. In movement, staging, costuming EVERYTHING is the same. But by your definition, even though they are indistinguishable, one is bellydance and the other is not, simply because one was created by an middle eastern women and one was not. Now, you could say that well “Randa wouldn’t do that” I think its very likely that Middle Eastern dancers will continue to infuse western elements into their dancing, quite likely hip hop. You could also argue “well it couldn’t possibly be the same.” That’s not the point. In this hypothetical situation (which, I’ve substantiated IS actually possible), they ARE exactly the same, only by different choreographers.

“Then perhaps belly dance was not the dance for you. There is validity in what you do, I am sure...just not under the title "bellydance". It is not the art, but the name that I consider misleading.”

I am not trying to “foist a falsehood” on the gp. When doing fusion, I NEVER go under ONLY “bellydance” it is always modified by other labels. I am obsessed with bellydance TECHNIQUE, not with trying to fake being Egyptian. Specifically, I NEED to be able to layer EVERYTHING. Fig 8s with hip circles and chest lifts. alternating chest circles with uni-directional chest circles. With 4s on the cymbals. C'MON!! Am I less of a bellydancer because I do shoulder rolls forward AND back, versus just backwards like middle eastern dancers? Am I less of a bellydancer because I make my own costumes? Again, by your definition, now matter what I did, I could never be a bellydancer, no matter how middle eastern my music, no matter how middle eastern my hair or costume is, so it seems silly for me to spend decades trying to "fake it." I am using bellydance technique to express myself, not to be a "warab" (wannabe-arab).

A few questions:
- Who specifically do you consider to be bellydancers?
- How you define the quality of a bellydancer? For me, its about isolation, layering (together, technique), musical interpretation (whatever music that may be), and stage presence/charisma. But by your cultural/narrow definition, these are equally valued with how authentic the costume is, how authentic the music is, and whether she is middle eastern or not.

 

[jenc]

I think my problem with the "not bellydance" stance is that if the word bellydance is reserved only for the ultra authentic, a great number of people who think that they are dancing or teaching egyptian style bellydance, simply would not be.

If you say that only some Western dancers are actually dancing bellydance, then clearly there has to be some kind of consensus. The posts here about who is authentic demonstrate that even dancers cannot agree about who is authentic egyptian style and who not. As for the general public, I suspect that anything in bedlah would qualify.

Indeed I suspect I would have to break it to my lovely Egyptian native teacher who goes home several times a year that she probably isn't teaching authentic BD. (at least not all the time)

I think that restriction of the term bellydance to cover Raqs Sharki and other dances from country of origin is too literal. As someone who has taken language to ALevel, I can tell you that frequently words overlap to varying degrees with the first and most obvious translation. you have to look at the usage in the country that you are translating to.

The use of the word bellydance is in the public imagination. Shakira and Beyonce qualify, as far as 99.9% of the public are concerned. BUT the line needs to be drawn somewhere where there is a chance of winning, or one risks being a lone voice thatis doomed to failure.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I think my problem with the "not bellydance" stance is that if the word bellydance is reserved only for the ultra authentic, a great number of people who think that they are dancing or teaching egyptian style bellydance, simply would not be.

If you say that only some Western dancers are actually dancing bellydance, then clearly there has to be some kind of consensus. The posts here about who is authentic demonstrate that even dancers cannot agree about who is authentic egyptian style and who not. As for the general public, I suspect that anything in bedlah would qualify.

Indeed I suspect I would have to break it to my lovely Egyptian native teacher who goes home several times a year that she probably isn't teaching authentic BD. (at least not all the time)

I think that restriction of the term bellydance to cover Raqs Sharki and other dances from country of origin is too literal. As someone who has taken language to ALevel, I can tell you that frequently words overlap to varying degrees with the first and most obvious translation. you have to look at the usage in the country that you are translating to.

The use of the word bellydance is in the public imagination. Shakira and Beyonce qualify, as far as 99.9% of the public are concerned. BUT the line needs to be drawn somewhere where there is a chance of winning, or one risks being a lone voice thatis doomed to failure.

This might sound ridiculous but here goes....

To me, a fly is a fly and is an insect with wings... which gets in your face!

I know a 'Blue bottle' and a 'wasp' or 'mosquito' and that is it.

But... an expert, they can tell me the different species and their various unique funtions.

..........but for me it is still a flamin fly!

This dance is sort of similar to me.

Examine it carefully and thoroughly then you will narrow it down, and that is the way most things go.

The people who 'narrow down' will still keep examining and learning and discovering new things whilst others will feel constrained and choose to go with the wider and more loosley based definition.

I started with an Egyptian teacher who grew up in Egypt as a 'Middle Class' young lady who attended the German School in Alexandria.

She is still a very good friend of mine and will accept that I know more about CERTAIN aspects of this dance than her but not the culture and more hidden depths.

She was not a trained dancer and sort of 'made it up' giving the feel and energy but not the technique. She only taught for 18 months before deciding she did not have adequate skills to continue. She can still talk about and discuss many aspects of the dance and culture in great detail, but not practice it as a reality.
She found the dance it extremely difficult to teach and pass on and was often led by the ability of the class which resulted in a very non traditional and futile venture. She decided it was not for her.

Even her social class clipped her ability as a dancer as she was trained to be 'refined' and this is not what a dancer is. These are her words.

I dont think there is anything wrong with having a clear view of everything. I see too many people being verbally battered for doing this but I dont see what the problem is really. If it is all incorrect then ok but most of the narrowing definitions are closer to the truth. Fusion moves much further away and too far for many.

We choose our own boundaries at the end of the day and when we do so, we should understand what we are doing and make this understood.
We should be able to accept where to draw a live and not hold onto the 'belly dance' label beyond what most feel is acceptable as this is only about their personal needs and has sweet FA to do with the art of ME dance.

I have said this before, but too many shape this dance into what they want it to be, and what matches their personal tastes rather than what it actaully is.

 

[jenc]

My personal choice is to keep "narrowing down" and refining my appreciation of the dance, but I feel perfectly able to do this whilst allowing other people to call most of the stuff that is around bellydancing.

If you want to be more precise, there are a lot of usefl indigenous names specific to the various dance forms of the ME. If everything is fusion apart from the most strict and narrow definition, we aare lefet with no tools for evaluating. for example, fusions which could be criticised for not containing enough BD, by definition wouldn't contain any, if the starting point were AmC, so the floodgates would be well and truly opened.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Belly dance

Dear Rosanna,
[

QUOTE=Rosanna;103234]Hi Aisha. Ok, I'm getting a better sense of where you’re coming from. You clearly have a VERY restrictive definition of what bellydance is. I can see how you've come to this definition, and while I think neither yours, nor my definitions are "Correct" or "Wrong", I think a using the term "bellydance" in a broader sense is more practical and descriptive.

I take just the opposite view and find using it in too broad a term makes it less practical, but more good for marketing purposes for those who are not actually performing it. I do not mean this as an insult, but I find that often they do not find their art forms acceptable under other labels, so they use the BD term for that reason. It in no way describes what they are putting on stage. The term has become a catch-all for dancers who do not fit into anywhere else. It is also not at all descriptive of what takes place on stage most of the time. I hope you will read what Caroline Afifi wrote on this a couple of posts back. I feel that she is right on.

At this point I should also mention that I’m really not pointing these arguments at you, I’m just taking your comments as an opportunity to talk about general issues in the bellydance scene. So, my reasons for using an inclusive definition of “bellydance.”

Me, too, except if it becomes a character assassination, as it often does when I disagree with people and they get frustrated. I am way tired of that.

We do need a term to connect the common movement thread throughout different dance styles that use basic movements derived from the historically middle eastern dance form. By basic/essential movements I mean: shimmies, accents, fig 8s, circles, slides, pyramids/vs, waves (see discussion below on how these are actually unique to bellydance). No matter what you call tribal fusion, ATS, ITS or whatever, these movements are shared with middle eastern dance.

Movement is a very, very fine thread and not a strong connection at all, since the connection is actually in the soul, essence, heart of the dance. As I have said, we find these movements in many, many kinds of dance around the planet. Not only that, but we also find that dancers from countries of origin occasionally use movements outside the basic movement families, for example, Randa's high kicks and Nagwa Fouad's movement patterns. The thing that keeps them in the realm of belly dance is not their movements, but their cultural base, their approach to movement, their world view.

In terms of movement, these dances are MUCH more similar to each other than to other dance forms. Can you propose a different term that adequately describes this common ground? “Experimental Fusion” does not even allude to what movements I use or what has influenced my style. Even though the style has departed pretty far from its historical origins, you can’t deny what has inspired it come from.

I find that many westerners are very exclusive of all other aspects of the dance and they focus on movement as the main point, when it is simply not. I can literally point to very many dances all over the world that utilize the same types of movements. Samba, Mambo Rhumba, Jitterbug, Watusi, Boogaloo, Break dancing, Freaking, Hula, New York Jazz, Tahitian dance, Modern dance, etc. They all use movement from those movement families, and sometimes at least as many of the families as belly dance. There are authentic ethnic belly dancers who do not utilize as many of what belly dancers consider movements from belly dance, as samba or break dancers use. Movement is a dance tool, not the sum total of the dance, which require other elements in order to be a specific dance.
As for what to call it, I would think that would REALLY piss people off, if I claimed to be in any position to tell them what to call their creations!! So many already get pretty pissy that I dance to clearly define what I am doing!!
Just because they have not taken the opportunity to think of a name for it does not mean it is right to call it belly dance.

A'isha wrote-“A few years back now, I did exactly that and it was never thought to be a techno dance or Goth dance or Tribal dance that was created by westerners. It means something that comes from the Middle East, even to those who may not have an education in it to back their thinking up.”

I’m not saying that gothic dance= bellydance. I’m saying that bellydance is the “Class” of dance, while gothic is the “Order”.

I disagree. It has nothing at all to do with the spirit, the eseence, the feeling, etc that belly dance is about. In fact, it is almost anti-belly dance in that light. Belly dance is not about a "Dark side", ever.

Within bellydance-gothic is other style “Families” (industrial, trance, wiccan, I’m not entirely familiar with them, but you get the idea). I totally agree that these new fangled fusion forms are not indicative or reflective of the ENTIRETY of bellydance .

In order to BE belly dance, it must be a holistic picture. We can not take this or that aspect, such as a few movements, and say its belly dance.

I would never say that you get a good grasp of what bellydancing as a whole is by watching one of my performances. Hence, I think it is absolutely necessary to modify the label bellydance by using other appropriate terms (such as “hip hop bellydance fusion” or “jazz bellydance fusion”). There is a caveat that there must be a SIGNIFICANT amount of “essential bellydance movements” included in these fusion forms. And this is where I can see peoples issue with a lot of bellydance fusion performances. WAAAAAAYYY too often people throw in 1 terribly done hip circle and think they are justified in including bellydance in the name of what they do (oh say “bellydance-picking-my-nose fusion”). That being said, at cabaret events I’ve seen performances equally lacking in bellydance moves, so this isn’t unique to fusion!!

I can not stress enough that belly dance is not just about a movement base. Without the cultural elements, it is not the dance.

A'isha wrote- “ do not just call Egyptian style belly dance. I also call Turkish and Lebanese styles belly dance, and off-shoots of those three basic styles that retain the cultural roots of the dances as they have evolved from these three forms in countries like Syria and Morocco.”

Apologies for the confusion, I was using “Egyptian” as an example, not saying that only Egyptian style is bellydance, just so I didn’t have to list all of the countries every time.

A'isha wrote- “Essential movements, as you call; them, are found in dances all over the world. The movements themselves do not have any special and specific connection to belly dance alone. What a belly dancer does as movement can be seen in many dances. It is the cultural essence of the dance that makes it what it is.”

What dances are shimmies, tummy flutters, figure 8s found it? Yes there are some vague similarities – wrist circles look almost similar to floreos in flamenco to the untrained eye, hula does hip circles, and kathak arm movements sometimes can look somewhat similar to those done in bellydance. But if you look past the gross generalization that “they both move their hips” the movements and technique involved are completely different. Its like saying flamenco and bellydance are the same dance because one plays castanets and the other plays finger cymbals!!!! The technique is completely different between hula and bellydance hip circles (no mater what type of hip circles you do in bellydance). Furthermore, the structure of the bellydance is completely different. No other dance form uses precise isolations and layering like bellydance does. This again is where the most similarities in movement are found between different “Orders” within the “Clas”s Bellydance, which is why ultimately they are separated based on movement from other dance Orders (hula, flamenco, etc.).


The structure of western fusion is also very different, but the fact is that these dances, in both fusion forms and in other native dances are not the same as what the natives do. I agree.

I am running put of room, I fear, so there will be a part 2

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

Part 2

“such as American oriental, Tribal Fusion, American Tribal, Goth, etc. None of these is belly dance,”

Ok, given you’re definition, I would have to agree that AmCab would also not be bellydance.

I do not refer to it as belly dance because it does not have the socio/cultural connection that the common usage of the word implies, the same as with other fusion forms. However, there are American dancers that I consider to be some of the most talented dancers out there, and I love what they create. Cassandra Shore is one of my favorite dancers, ever!!

A'isha wrote-“You know, I could get a little cheezy here too, and suggest you ask yourself why you are trying to foist off a falsehood on the general public, but I have been trying to keep our conversation civil and adult. You actually have no idea who I prefer to dance for, though Arabs are one of my favorite audiences, along with seasoned dancers who know how to see the dance. The reason is that I think they have a broader appreciation of what I am presenting. I think you also have no business deciding for me who I choose to dance for. I like all audiences but have preferences, as I am sure you do. I could get snotty and imply that Arabs would laugh you out of the room, but that is rather mean and purposeless. Can we continue as adults who are giving each other credit for some intelligence?”

I apologize Aisha that you took this personally. I used your comments to present arguments to everyone here. I know many people gear their performances towards Arab audiences and I did not mean to imply that you prefer to dance for Arabs.

Well, since you aimed it at ME, it was hard not to take it personally, but its water under the bridge as far as I am concerned. My point was that I want to keep this conversation on topic and without getting personally insulting. I think I could like you despite our philosophical differences.

I think assuming that Arabs will not like fusion is insulting and demeaning to them. You are assuming that they cannot appreciate other dance forms, which is discriminatory. Give Arabs more credit.

Well, let me tell you, after sitting with them for the last 30 years or so at many, many shows, if you had been there, you might want to insult them yourself, because believe me, they are for the most part very judgmental about it, if it is in any way implied that Middle Eastern dance is being performed and then fusion is on stage. I have heard comments from them that embarrassed even me,and I am pretty used to it. I give Arabs plenty of credit. My best friend is Saudi and most of my other friends are Arabs from various countries. For some reason, I find that I get along better with most Arabs I than I do with most Americans I know.... they seem to understand me more or something....

Also, please watch my dancing before insulting it. Just like you cannot judge the quality of dancing from photos, you can likewise not judge the quality of my dancing from my opinions.

You may note that I said, I "could" react like that, not that I did. I felt that you were verging on being insulting and wanted to show that I could do the same, but preferred not to. I never would pass judgment on a dancer I have never even seen dance. I am crazy, not stupid!!!

Ok, here’s my big issue. What if Randa Kamal decided to “view hip hop through an Egyptian lense” and created a choreography with hip hop elements? This choreography, hypothetically, also happens to be exactly the same as one done by oh, say, some dancer from New York. In movement, staging, costuming EVERYTHING is the same. But by your definition, even though they are indistinguishable, one is bellydance and the other is not,

I did not say any such thing. In order for it to be belly dance, it has to have the feeling and essence of belly dance, the spirit of belly dance, as distinguished by many elements, of which movement is only one. Randa would be creating a fusion that is also not belly dance if she decided to do something with a Hip-hop base. If she could not perfectly emulate the feeling and soul of Hip-hop, it would not be Hip-hop, but that does not mean Randa is incapable of doing anything but belly dance, either. Some time ago, a group of Japanese decided to get really into Square dance. They got the the movements all down, got costumes, got a caller, got the music, etc. They totally did NOT get the feeling and it looked so....off....... They were not on the mark as to the nature of Square dance at all. They were doing something else because it was not in the realm of the spirit of the dance. It's the same reason I am not good at Lebanese belly dance. I can not quite catch the particular cultural essence in my dance.

simply because one was created by an middle eastern women and one was not. Now, you could say that well “Randa wouldn’t do that” I think its very likely that Middle Eastern dancers will continue to infuse western elements into their dancing, quite likely hip hop. You could also argue “well it couldn’t possibly be the same.” That’s not the point. In this hypothetical situation (which, I’ve substantiated IS actually possible), they ARE exactly the same, only by different choreographers.

I disagree. Their spirit is not the same unless Randa perfectly captures that life blood that is Hip-Hop.

I am not trying to “foist a falsehood” on the gp. When doing fusion, I NEVER go under ONLY “bellydance” it is always modified by other labels. I am obsessed with bellydance TECHNIQUE, not with trying to fake being Egyptian.

Are you suggesting that I AM trying to "fake being Egyptian"? Look back and see that I used the phrase above as a counter to your previous insult, not as a descriptor of your work.

Specifically, I NEED to be able to layer EVERYTHING. Fig 8s with hip circles and chest lifts. alternating chest circles with uni-directional chest circles. With 4s on the cymbals. C'MON!! Am I less of a bellydancer because I do shoulder rolls forward AND back, versus just backwards like middle eastern dancers? Am I less of a bellydancer because I make my own costumes? Again, by your definition, now matter what I did, I could never be a bellydancer, no matter how middle eastern my music, no matter how middle eastern my hair or costume is, so it seems silly for me to spend decades trying to "fake it." I am using bellydance technique to express myself, not to be a "warab" (wannabe-arab).

Again with the insults. If this keeps up, I will not be able to talk to you. I am not trying to fake being an Arab. I am trying to do my best by a dance that deserves it's own recognition, which is in danger of being lost in a sea of things that are not the dance. I have taken the time to really, really learn what this dance it at its core. I am sorry you find that waste of time.

A few questions:
- Who specifically do you consider to be bellydancers?

Those inside the cultures who perform the dance. Whether they are GOOD belly dancers or not is always up for consideration. Some are fantastic, some are downright hideous. the cultural definition allows for both extremes.)
Those from outside the culture who for some reason are agle to step outside their own worldview and grasp what it is at the heart of the dance that makes it what it is, and are able to express that thing in their own dance.

- How you define the quality of a bellydancer? For me, its about isolation, layering (together, technique), musical interpretation (whatever music that may be), and stage presence/charisma.

For me, because all of those things do not include the cultural meaning, purpose, essence of the dance, they do not define belly dance. They could be a definition of a number of kinds of dances. The cultural element is missing and that, in reality defines every ethnic dance form.

But by your cultural/narrow definition, these are equally valued with how authentic the costume is, how authentic the music is, and whether she is middle eastern or not.

[/QUOTE]

I do have a narrow, cultural definition, but it is based in the dance evolving within the culture also, meaning that while those external things such as costume, musical selection, might change, within the worldview as expressed within the culture, the heart and soul, the feeling, the reason all remain the same.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Aniseteph]

I like the Japanese square dancing example, and maybe Randa doing hiphop would come across as all wrong to anyone who knows the real thing. It's not just what you do, it's the way that you do it, and that's not technique.

(I had to search YouTube for the Japanese square dancing, and I see I'm not the first, c'mon, who was it...?)

 

[Caroline_afifi]

The 'Warab' thing is something else i raised on another thread.

People do get confused with 'acting like an Arab' and being a good Arab dancer, the two are not the same.

I personally think that many abandon the idea of Egyptian dance and turn to fusion in order to be good at something and relate to it better... because it is much easier.

There are good fusionists whom are extremely good at both and they have my respect, but many have no clue about ME dance and have never even been taught it.

I find the whole 'Warab' thing laughable because as a person I do not dress my house like a hareem and wear Bindi's on my head and burn insense like many 'Fusionists' do. It is fusionists who wish to blend their wannabe culture with a dance form from the Middle East. Go ahead but dont put people down who have no desire to join in.

Sorry to offend anyone who lives like this as this is not my intention.
I am trying to make a point about people who seek to define authentic ME dance being labelled as 'Wannabe Arabs' when plenty of people in this dance live the Hareem fantasy on a daily basis with no clue about the culture.

I think people often get very confused and carried away with the whole thing and some even dress up in suedo tribal.hareem/Indian outfits to go to the supermarket.

Referring to people who wish to understand and define an art form as 'Warabs' is one sided and very unfair.

 

[shiradotnet]

I have said this before, but too many shape this dance into what they want it to be, and what matches their personal tastes rather than what it actaully is.

To paraphrase something insightful that Aisha Azar said on another thread...

The dance does not change its nature just because [a person with a certain personal taste] wishes to dance it.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

To paraphrase something insightful that Aisha Azar said on another thread...

The dance does not change its nature just because [a person with a certain personal taste] wishes to dance it.

mmm... but was that not in relation to native Egyptian dancers?

I dont mind fusion but it tends to be too loosley labelled, and these days anything goes.

I think the dance does change its nature depending on what people are fusing it with. I like good fusion but I think the term MED is often abused.

An American doing a hip drop does not make them an Arab just like an Egyptian doing a Hula does not make them Hawaiian.

There is more to both dance forms than that.... too much more and you move in the oppsite direction.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

mmm... but was that not in relation to native Egyptian dancers?

I dont mind fusion but it tends to be too loosley labelled, and these days anything goes.

I think the dance does change its nature depending on what people are fusing it with. I like good fusion but I think the term MED is often abused.

An American doing a hip drop does not make them an Arab just like an Egyptian doing a Hula does not make them Hawaiian.

There is more to both dance forms than that.... too much more and you move in the oppsite direction.

Dear Caroline,
I think Shira nicely caught my meaning.
What I meant was that the authentic ethnic dances are consistent in their nature. When a person decides to do a fusion style, then they are doing a different dance, because what they have created no longer has the same nature as the original ethnic dance. The dance does not change what it really is at the beck and call of people who want to dance. Rather, when people dance outside the boundaries and perimeters of the nature of the dance, then they create something new and it is in need of a new definition.
I hope that makes it more clear...???
Regards

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Dear Caroline,
I think Shira nicely caught my meaning.
What I meant was that the authentic ethnic dances are consistent in their nature. When a person decides to do a fusion style, then they are doing a different dance, because what they have created no longer has the same nature as the original ethnic dance. The dance does not change what it really is at the beck and call of people who want to dance. Rather, when people dance outside the boundaries and perimeters of the nature of the dance, then they create something new and it is in need of a new definition.
I hope that makes it more clear...???
Regards

Yes it does... I agree! I was a little confused.

Thanks

 

[shiradotnet]

I do not mean this as an insult, but I find that often they do not find their art forms acceptable under other labels, so they use the BD term for that reason. It in no way describes what they are putting on stage.

Yes, a year ago I went to a workshop which was advertised as teaching an "Egyptian pop" choreography. The instructor was someone I wasn't particularly interested in studying with, but I went because I wanted to show my support for the sponsors. Besides, if one keeps an open mind, one can often pick up insights from just about any workshop.

Well, there was nothing resembling "Egyptian pop" about that workshop. The music didn't sound like any Egyptian pop I've ever heard - it sounded like sort of aimless American New Age. And the dance style didn't remotely resemble belly dance - it was jazz dance with the occasional stray hip drop thrown in. I don't know what that instructor was thinking when she labeled that workshop "Egyptian pop", and I really felt as though it was false advertising.

I came away from the experience thinking that this dancer probably tried originally to make it in the competitive world of mainstream dance - jazz, ballet, modern, etc., and failed. So instead of continuing to be even a minnow in a very large ocean, she decided to appropriate the term "belly dance" and market herself to our population. And the inclusive mind set that so many belly dancers have enabled her to do just that.

Just because they have not taken the opportunity to think of a name for it does not mean it is right to call it belly dance.

I agree. I would also add that just because they're too lazy to develop their own venues and national following does not mean it it is right to call it belly dance. Also, just because they have been incapable of finding a mainstream market for what they want to sell does not mean it right to call it belly dance.

I can not stress enough that belly dance is not just about a movement base. Without the cultural elements, it is not the dance.

I agree. There is indeed more to belly dance than the movement vocabulary, as you have articulated so well. I won't repeat all the points you made, I'll just say I agree with your rationale.

However, we do diverge a bit on one nuance. I do think that the movement vocabulary and the technique with which those movements are presented do have their role to play in making it belly dance.

In other words, if an Egyptian were to do a tap dance routine to Alf Leyla wa Leyla filtered through their culture and world view, that person's Egyptianness and the song's Egyptianness would still be insufficient to make it belly dance in my eyes. The same goes for the polka, and many other dance forms I could name. This is why Randa's high kicks dilute the bellydance-ness of her performances for me and nudge them into a fusion direction.

So, yes, I agree that the dance is more than movement vocabulary. But for me, the movement remains one of the components of the essence. But it's a component that cannot stand alone - it needs the other attributes.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Movement

Yes, a year ago I went to a workshop which was advertised as teaching an "Egyptian pop" choreography. The instructor was someone I wasn't particularly interested in studying with, but I went because I wanted to show my support for the sponsors. Besides, if one keeps an open mind, one can often pick up insights from just about any workshop.

Well, there was nothing resembling "Egyptian pop" about that workshop. The music didn't sound like any Egyptian pop I've ever heard - it sounded like sort of aimless American New Age. And the dance style didn't remotely resemble belly dance - it was jazz dance with the occasional stray hip drop thrown in. I don't know what that instructor was thinking when she labeled that workshop "Egyptian pop", and I really felt as though it was false advertising.

I came away from the experience thinking that this dancer probably tried originally to make it in the competitive world of mainstream dance - jazz, ballet, modern, etc., and failed. So instead of continuing to be even a minnow in a very large ocean, she decided to appropriate the term "belly dance" and market herself to our population. And the inclusive mind set that so many belly dancers have enabled her to do just that.




I agree. I would also add that just because they're too lazy to develop their own venues and national following does not mean it it is right to call it belly dance. Also, just because they have been incapable of finding a mainstream market for what they want to sell does not mean it right to call it belly dance.




I agree. There is indeed more to belly dance than the movement vocabulary, as you have articulated so well. I won't repeat all the points you made, I'll just say I agree with your rationale.

However, we do diverge a bit on one nuance. I do think that the movement vocabulary and the technique with which those movements are presented do have their role to play in making it belly dance.

In other words, if an Egyptian were to do a tap dance routine to Alf Leyla wa Leyla filtered through their culture and world view, that person's Egyptianness and the song's Egyptianness would still be insufficient to make it belly dance in my eyes. The same goes for the polka, and many other dance forms I could name. This is why Randa's high kicks dilute the bellydance-ness of her performances for me and nudge them into a fusion direction.

So, yes, I agree that the dance is more than movement vocabulary. But for me, the movement remains one of the components of the essence. But it's a component that cannot stand alone - it needs the other attributes.

Dear Shira,
I agree that there is a limit on how much one can incorporate movement outside the belly dance family and still refer to it as belly dance whether native or non native. I wrote somewhere around here that if Randa uses a whole bunch pf HipHop movements, she is no longer doing belly dance. I know we have a difference of opinion on this, but I still see her the core of what she creates as "belly dance", and a movement or two outside the regular realm of movement does not overtake that essence and spirit, from my point of view, just as Dina is still a belly dancer, even when she wears a short skirt. If Randa dance ever gets to the point where the movements from outside overpower the spirit what she presents as belly dance, I will be right there beside you calling it fusion, because it will be!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Rosanna]

Part 2



You may note that I said, I "could" react like that, not that I did. I felt that you were verging on being insulting and wanted to show that I could do the same, but preferred not to. I never would pass judgment on a dancer I have never even seen dance. I am crazy, not stupid!!!






Are you suggesting that I AM trying to "fake being Egyptian"? Look back and see that I used the phrase above as a counter to your previous insult, not as a descriptor of your work.




Again with the insults. If this keeps up, I will not be able to talk to you. I am not trying to fake being an Arab. I am trying to do my best by a dance that deserves it's own recognition, which is in danger of being lost in a sea of things that are not the dance. I have taken the time to really, really learn what this dance it at its core. I am sorry you find that waste of time.

OH dude, I'm not talking about you being a "Warab"!!! I was talking about how I felt about myself!! It's perfectly genuine in other people and engrossing to watch, but I just felt like i was "pretending" no matter how well i knew the steps. I think that accurately portraying and passing on cultural art forms in their traditional style is extremely important. Without that, any new fusion doesn't have any reference. And its also really cool.

Anything I said above which could possibly be construed as an insult, was either a comment about myself or some hypothetical example. I normally don't get involved with online discussions, because, well, you hear the same stuff over and over again. But I thought this discussion is really interesting, and i just wanted to find out more about how people come to define "bellydance." I really just wanted to go through the exercise of putting my thoughts together logically and see how well they stand up to other perspectives.

FYI, saying that "i could say this nasty thing about you, but I won't" basically just comes accross as you actually saying it". Best not to mention it in the first place.

Ok, need to pass out, I'm sure there'll be more for me to respond too, but I only took a brief glance through.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Rofl!!!

OH dude, I'm not talking about you being a "Warab"!!!

*can't stop grinning from ear to ear* You might not have even meant to call her a "dude," but I did find it humorous, sorry... :lol:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

:lol: for me too...
here in the Uk it is something we associate with a film like Waynes world.

Hi Rosanna,

I have raised this 'pretending/imitating' issue before and I do believe it is an issue which confuses people.

I know this is addressed to A'isha but I wanted to highlight the fact that tribal dancers and fusionists also often live out a sort of 'Ethnic lifestyle'...

so how do we define a 'Warab'? generally I mean...

I am certainly interested in opening up this conversation as I have not discussed it in any depth on a forum (or off for that matter).

It has been something which has been raised several times in past conversations with dancers. but which I have never fully explored.

I think there are those who do not want to tie this dance to ME culture and would prefer to disassociate it altogether, and there are those who wish to acknowledge the roots in ME but have moved the dance so far it has emigrated and become something else... then we have those who only want to understand it within its cultural context because this is more interesting for them.

It is the latter which is generally labelled as the 'Warab, purist, traditionalist, facist etc etc' despite the fact that the others forms take from various cultures and make it their own on (and off) stage identity and fiercely guarding and protecting what they do.

With regards to Fusion dance... my take is this

English language has strong Latin and Greek (and various other) roots but we call this new fusion 'English'.

Americans call their new Fusion 'English' and some call it 'American English' and those who study English Language say... bla bla bla about American English.

I see the 'Fusion dance' discussion in a similar way