Gothic Belly dance talk

[Erik]

to Erik -- I wouldn't classify Frankenstein as a Gothic novel, if you're talking about Gothic literature. I'd classify it a scathing commentary on Victorian parenting. Think back and remember what made the "monster" a monster. First it was parental rejection, then it was his mis- or un-guided education. That 'education' haunted him, and he in turn haunted his "father."

Perhaps so, Aziyade. I still have not read the book yet, nor Dracula either, although they are on my to-read list someday. I think there is a justified place in the world for horror fiction. When I say horror I mean REAL horror, with a moral lesson involved. If anything, my interest in books and movies like these probably made me become a better Christian than if my mother had continued taking me to church or permitted anyone else to do it. Nowadays I cannot talk about the horror genre with most people anymore because at the mention of the word they instantly assume I am talking about slashers and chainsaws and exploding heads, and I never had any use for that. To me that's not horror, just lowbrow gore.

I agree with some of what you and Belly Love say, but I also think there is a danger of seeing evil everywhere you look. In the past cats were thought to be evil, and I love cats. Snakes were thought to be evil, and I've run into quite a few people who still cling to this ignorant notion. Once even being left-handed was once considered evil, and if I remember my Latin the word for left is "sinister."

My former gripe against Gothic belly dance had nothing to do with any perception of evil, but because I saw it as depressing and unnecessary, just as I did with Tribal. Did the world really need a new kind of belly dancing? What was wrong with the old kind? Was it broken? And if it wasn't broken, why did Carolena appoint herself to fix it? [Not the first time that I warmed up to something which I didn't like at first.] Thanks for your reply. As usual, you've given me something to think about.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I am not a Christian, so this is coming from a totally different perspective, but...

Do Christians need to be "glorifying" God 24/7? Does everything they do have to revolve around worshiping God? How do you know when something is un-godly? How does God feel about people who spend their time in belly dance forums discussing belly dance instead of worshiping him? How is a dance hobby any different or any more or less "godly" than a fiction writing hobby?

Actually, yes to glorifying God but it's also an attitude or the way your heart goes. For instance, if you love someone with all your heart, no, you don't talk about them or to them all the time. But your heart's desire is for that person and to that extent, you are spending your love on that person even though you don't see them all the time, the feeling is just there. Same thing for Christians.

Personally, I don't have a problem with vampires and ghost stories up to a point because I am a practicing Christian. I have a little fun with it too, but it's not really much my style. It was fun when I used to trick or treat.

Now let's go back to talking goth. Again, if you don't like it, don't go near it but if you like it, then live and let live.

 

[LilithNoor]

I'm really intrigued by Gothic belly dance in its various forms, and for the past few years I've been going to Gothla UK, which is a real celebration of the art form. The performances I've seen have ranged from twenties-style glamour by Tempest to deeply emotional cabaret pieces, glamorous burlesque fan fusion, carousing acrobatic pirates, sinsister dancing dolls, even a take-off of Kate Bush.

I feel like gothic belly dance can be a catch-all for any number of different styles, possibly because Goth is a pretty wide label in itself, encapsulating architecture, music, literature and about twenty different clothing styles.

 

[Erik]

I feel like gothic belly dance can be a catch-all for any number of different styles, possibly because Goth is a pretty wide label in itself, encapsulating architecture, music, literature and about twenty different clothing styles.

Very true. After Lisa Blount died, someone on the IMDb asked a question about a "goth" she played in a movie dealing with the death of James Dean, asking if there were goths in the 1950's. I was the first to reply and asnwered no, there was no Gothic subculture in the 50's. Blount's character was dressed in imitation of Maila Nurmi (aka Vampira). Whomever wrote the article in question was unaware of that and just applied the term goth.

It led to an interesting discussion and someone claimed that Gothic began in London underground clubs and then spread to America. I had no problem believing it. Often, it seems that the British are the innovators, and Americans are the imitators. My current impression is that being a goth is more about romance and rebellion, but there will always be people who go overboard with it, and people who will swipe the term to lend appeal to their own activities, whatever they may be.

It might help if someone would codify what is Gothic belly dance and what is not, but like any other style the name is there for anyone to use or abuse as they see fit. Later I'm going to go back and read this entire thread from the beginning when time permits to see what I missed. It has become more complicated and interesting than originally expected.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Did the world really need a new kind of belly dancing? What was wrong with the old kind? Was it broken? And if it wasn't broken, why did Carolena appoint herself to fix it?

Now THAT is an interesting question.

On the surface, I could argue that Carolena really liked the idea of group improvisation (as from modern dance) and thought it hadn't been done before in belly dance. (Of course, her education was somewhat lacking. The Banat Mazin ghawazee have a very stylized group improvisational structure, although you might not consider them belly dancers.)

In the UK, we had Suraya Hilal who was the self-appointed "sanitizer" of belly dance. Through her Raqs Sharki Society, she redefined the dance to suit her own whims and her own visual aesthetic.

We have dancers in the US who every day try to "fix" what they perceive to be what is "wrong with" the co-called "cabaret" dance. Not so much on this board, but on Tribe and LiveJournal I've seen numerous screeds on "boring sexed-up belly dance" and how Tribal reclaims the power of the original dance.

We're all in the business of "re-inventing" the dance each time we do it. But most of us (at least here on OD) aren't quite so arrogant as to think we're "fixing it" when we perform it. But yes, that attitude does exist in spades in American belly dance.

Do we NEED a new kind of belly dancing? I don't think so. But then I'm not a 20-something who is desperate to sell tickets to my workshops, trying to latch onto some "new thing" or "different thing" to be my claim to fame, rather than waiting out the time and experience needed to be GENUINELY good enough at something that it can be considered a new direction in my art.

Every 5 or 6 years some freshman art major at the university here presents a sample of his/her own fecal matter on a canvas. We call it the "It's art because I made it and I am an artist" syndrome. It's not original. It's not new, and it's certainly not innovative. But to the individual "artist" it's a brilliant statement reflection his/her own PERCEIVED "original" ideas about the nature of art. I am really seeing the same thing in belly dance now: picking up on a trend and declaring it the new "style."

How long before we see "Girl with the dragon tattoo" bellydance? Or Harry Potter bellydance? Horde Bellydance? Assassin's Creed Bellydance? Justin Bieber Bellydance? AAAGGHHH!!

 

[Erik]

Now THAT is an interesting question.

On the surface, I could argue that Carolena really liked the idea of group improvisation (as from modern dance) and thought it hadn't been done before in belly dance. (Of course, her education was somewhat lacking. The Banat Mazin ghawazee have a very stylized group improvisational structure, although you might not consider them belly dancers.)

In the UK, we had Suraya Hilal who was the self-appointed "sanitizer" of belly dance. Through her Raqs Sharki Society, she redefined the dance to suit her own whims and her own visual aesthetic.

We have dancers in the US who every day try to "fix" what they perceive to be what is "wrong with" the co-called "cabaret" dance. Not so much on this board, but on Tribe and LiveJournal I've seen numerous screeds on "boring sexed-up belly dance" and how Tribal reclaims the power of the original dance.

We're all in the business of "re-inventing" the dance each time we do it. But most of us (at least here on OD) aren't quite so arrogant as to think we're "fixing it" when we perform it. But yes, that attitude does exist in spades in American belly dance.

Do we NEED a new kind of belly dancing? I don't think so. But then I'm not a 20-something who is desperate to sell tickets to my workshops, trying to latch onto some "new thing" or "different thing" to be my claim to fame, rather than waiting out the time and experience needed to be GENUINELY good enough at something that it can be considered a new direction in my art.

Every 5 or 6 years some freshman art major at the university here presents a sample of his/her own fecal matter on a canvas. We call it the "It's art because I made it and I am an artist" syndrome. It's not original. It's not new, and it's certainly not innovative. But to the individual "artist" it's a brilliant statement reflection his/her own PERCEIVED "original" ideas about the nature of art. I am really seeing the same thing in belly dance now: picking up on a trend and declaring it the new "style."

How long before we see "Girl with the dragon tattoo" bellydance? Or Harry Potter bellydance? Horde Bellydance? Assassin's Creed Bellydance? Justin Bieber Bellydance? AAAGGHHH!!

Thanks, Aziyade. Hopefully there won't be that much diversity in styles (I'm still smiling over Spongebob Squarepants bellydance), but it does seem to be leaning in that direction. Anyone not satisfied with an existing camp can always branch off and form their own, and that's what they're doing.

When I joined here, Juno said that I could be useful if only to ask meaningful questions. Of course, every time I ask a question like that I feel as if I am standing on a gallows waiting for someone to pull the trap.

You remember the discussion of Steampunk on Tribe? Well, now I'm wondering if it is a more sanitized version of Gothic, for people who like the connection with a more romantic era but are just not comfortable with the devil faces and all that.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

It led to an interesting discussion and someone claimed that Gothic began in London underground clubs and then spread to America. I had no problem believing it. Often, it seems that the British are the innovators, and Americans are the imitators.

It's argued that the music came out of the London Punk scene, and when the "founding" musicians were interviewed, they did tend to attribute the idea (or at least the influence) to punk rock. BUT, goth music grew legs EARLY and ran in many many directions, and some of the synth-wave music doesn't sound at all like it came it came from the same womb as the more "rock" or metal sounds.

In the other arts, we'd do better to separate "goth" and "Gothic" but even then the word "Gothic" is used different ways for different art forms.

Gothic visual art and architecture may or may not have anything to do with death and dark themes. It just comes from a French tradition that some artists and architects disliked, and so they named it Gothic which roughly translated into "Barbaric" or ugly. If you've ever been in the Barcelona Cathedral you'll probably acknowledge that it is as far from "ugly" as you can get:

La Seu Cathedral, Barcelona


The Gothic NOVEL, on the other hand, is classified as such by its atmosphere and the dark and "foreboding" themes -- and not particularly in any historical literary tradition or in the writing style. I would argue this is probably true of gothic music, and why it began being called such. Melodrama, hints of self-parody, a Neo-Romantic attitude about what art is about, setting a mood that seems like it belongs in Castle of Otranto -- that was early goth music, and I think it was called that BECAUSE it reminded people of the Gothic novel.

And you have "goth" which is the sub-culture. Which can now mean anything, and is completely useless as an indicator of anything. The Goth movement didn't grow out of the political arena, like Hippies and Punks did, and although I think it started to grow out of the musical arena, it quickly grew OUT OF the music and left it behind.

My current impression is that being a goth is more about romance and rebellion, but there will always be people who go overboard with it, and people who will swipe the term to lend appeal to their own activities, whatever they may be.

Exactly.

It might help if someone would codify what is Gothic belly dance and what is not, but like any other style the name is there for anyone to use or abuse as they see fit.

There are several sites that "describe" what GBD is, but to me they focus on the theatrics and costume rather than anything relevant about the dance, and this is why I continue to assert that most GBD is just about how the dance is presented and not about the dance itself.


For thought:

I've you've read the actual novel Dracula, you might remember that being a vampire was considered the most abhorrent and horrifying thing you could imagine. Not so much because you had to feed on human blood, but because you LITERALLY had no soul.

To the Victorians, the idea that you could actually LOSE your soul, and be prevented from entering Heaven (or even Hell, I guess) was the most unbelievably frightening thing they could conceptualize.

How interesting that just a hundred and something years later, we have all but forgotten the idea that you could be soul-less, and the horror that implied.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Justin Bieber Bellydance? AAAGGHHH!!

:shok: Heaven forbid :lol:

 

[LilithNoor]

There are several sites that "describe" what GBD is, but to me they focus on the theatrics and costume rather than anything relevant about the dance, and this is why I continue to assert that most GBD is just about how the dance is presented and not about the dance itself.

Sounds reasonable to me. I can't think of any moves that are unique to Gothic Bellydance; to me it's very much a combination of costuming, music, mood and personality.

How long before we see "Girl with the dragon tattoo" bellydance? Or Harry Potter bellydance? Horde Bellydance? Assassin's Creed Bellydance? Justin Bieber Bellydance? AAAGGHHH!!

We-ell, there is a Matrix themed piece being performed at Gothla this year, and I'm absolutely sure that someone somewhere has done a World of Warcraft themed dance. Probably my troupe mate, actually!

 

[meddevi]

As I mentioned earlier, the Gothic Bellydance Resource (The Gothic Belly Dance Resource) really hasn't had a good update in a long time - did the math, it's been a good 4-6 years since it's really been seriously edited - been too busy to really give it a good overhaul, but with some help, hopefully soon it will be a lot more comprehensive and detailed (plus include info on Steampunk & Bellydance, etc). Had started a project to document movements specific to GBD back around 2007 (and there are quite a few of them - I have a list of my own that I teach, and I'm sure that the other prominent teachers of the style do as well), but between cross-country and regional moves, traveling and my job as a jewelry designer, there just hasn't been the time. Ah, to have copious amounts of spare time...

BUT, we did have a panel at Gothla US last year that discussed GBD in depth from several angles and opinions, with myself (Tempest), Asharah, Anaar, and Kajira Djoumahna (of Tribal Fest). The panel was about 45 minutes long, and I recently got the video of the whole thing, spliced kindly into 4 parts by the videographer so it could be uploaded to youtube. It will eventually be included on the Resource website, but in the meantime, if you have the time and inclination, you can watch here:

Part I: YouTube - Gothla US 2010 Panel Discussion - Part 1
Part II: YouTube - Gothla US 2010 Panel Discussion Part 2
Part III: YouTube - Gothla US 2010 Panel Discussion Part 3
Part VI: YouTube - Gothla US Panel Discussion Part 4

 

[Belly Love]

I am not a Christian, so this is coming from a totally different perspective, but...

Do Christians need to be "glorifying" God 24/7? Does everything they do have to revolve around worshiping God? How do you know when something is un-godly? How does God feel about people who spend their time in belly dance forums discussing belly dance instead of worshiping him? How is a dance hobby any different or any more or less "godly" than a fiction writing hobby?

My answers would take me hours to explain, so I will just say this:

A:Glorifying God and worshiping him are two different things. Ex: If you have been given a talent (ie: singing,dancing,writing, teaching, etc.) using this talent in a positive way glorifies God. Worshiping is doing things like praying. No, Christians are not expected to pray 24/7, each individuals relationship with God is different.

B: I never said there was anything wrong with writing fiction, I said "glorifying vampires" is ungodly (and I don't know what she exactly writes about vampires so I don't have an opinion on her writing specifically). Please don't change what I say into something completely different.

C: There are different types of religions that also consider themselves Christian: Catholics, Baptists, etc. I would just like to clarify that I am non-denominational- I'm just a Christian who goes by the Bible.

I think there are two key things here:

1. Unbridled stereotyping. To me (as well as many of the long-term Goths I know), the Gothic culture is about finding the beauty in all things and finding balance in life - if that's a bad thing to "glorify" and "promote", then that's news to me..

What on earth are you talking about? I'm sorry, but saying that "all Goths are not the same" and making a statement thats based on FACTS in regards to a culture is not sterotyping.

And yes, I definitely don't find beauty in depression, anger, blood coming from someone's eyes, etc.

2. "Un-Godly" - well, the smart arse in me has to say, that all depends on WHAT (or WHOSE) GOD you are talking about. The world does not revolve around one belief system, so your religion's concept of "god" is one way, it may not be mine, nor does that simple fact make either invalid. To some, dancing of ANY KIND would be considered as such (I'm sure you've seen "Footloose" - just one example based off of real beliefs), to others it's eating meat, and others still it's something else. It's really about MANKIND deciding what God thinks/believes/is through their own experiences with the Divine. For me personally, "God" is in all things

I don't believe in other people's "gods" and there's plenty of people who don't believe in the one I believe exists, therefore, no one is going to acknowlege all "gods" 'cause that would be going against their own god.

I find that people can be quite judgemental when it comes to Christians.

Anyway, if people have no issues with the goth culture and goth belly dance, that's their choice, but don't turn things I say into something completely different 'cause you're bothered by the fact that I don't and my reasons why, which are based on facts.

 

[Erik]

I've you've read the actual novel Dracula, you might remember that being a vampire was considered the most abhorrent and horrifying thing you could imagine. Not so much because you had to feed on human blood, but because you LITERALLY had no soul.

To the Victorians, the idea that you could actually LOSE your soul, and be prevented from entering Heaven (or even Hell, I guess) was the most unbelievably frightening thing they could conceptualize.

How interesting that just a hundred and something years later, we have all but forgotten the idea that you could be soul-less, and the horror that implied.

Thanks, Aziyade. When my shift is finished all I want to do is go home, get out of these boots, put on my bunny slippers, and read somthing worthwhile on the computer. You've given me much to consider.

[I made up the bunny slippers but everything else was factual.]

It occurred to me later that Frankenstein was published in 1818, and if I remember Victoria did not become Queen until 1837. Forgive me if I'm wrong, or if I'm right and just being too picky. Dracula would definitely be Victorian.

Since you gave me food for thought, here's some for you.

It also occurred to me that there's no way to make any kind of bellydance acceptable to all Christians because of the ties to Islam. As you know, relations between Christianity and Islam have been tense in the last ten years but long before then I was running into Christians who tried to convince me that Islam was evil. They use scraps from Revelation and Nostradamus to convince themselves that the anti-Christ will be a Muslim. One of my friends believes it, and although she is a good friend I have told her that I think it's a clear case of assuming too much based on too little.

Nevertheless, even without the skulls and crossbones, pentagrams, and other dark symbolism.....without tattoos and piercings......no whips, chains, or torture devices......no ouija boards or black candles.....even if you wore a cross and a halo with your costume, and maybe angel wings instead of Isis wings, there are still Christians who would view it as a non-Christian dance, or a seductive dance that Christians should not involve themselves with.

I'm glad that the majority of Christians do not see bellydance as harmful, but in the past they did. Personally as a Christian I believe in the First Commandment, but as an American I'm very grateful that we have the First Amendment too.

 

[goddessyasaman]

As I mentioned earlier, the Gothic Bellydance Resource (The Gothic Belly Dance Resource) really hasn't had a good update in a long time - did the math, it's been a good 4-6 years since it's really been seriously edited - been too busy to really give it a good overhaul, but with some help, hopefully soon it will be a lot more comprehensive and detailed (plus include info on Steampunk & Bellydance, etc). Had started a project to document movements specific to GBD back around 2007 (and there are quite a few of them - I have a list of my own that I teach, and I'm sure that the other prominent teachers of the style do as well), but between cross-country and regional moves, traveling and my job as a jewelry designer, there just hasn't been the time. Ah, to have copious amounts of spare time...

BUT, we did have a panel at Gothla US last year that discussed GBD in depth from several angles and opinions, with myself (Tempest), Asharah, Anaar, and Kajira Djoumahna (of Tribal Fest). The panel was about 45 minutes long, and I recently got the video of the whole thing, spliced kindly into 4 parts by the videographer so it could be uploaded to youtube. It will eventually be included on the Resource website, but in the meantime, if you have the time and inclination, you can watch here:

Part I: YouTube - Gothla US 2010 Panel Discussion - Part 1
Part II: YouTube - Gothla US 2010 Panel Discussion Part 2
Part III: YouTube - Gothla US 2010 Panel Discussion Part 3
Part VI: YouTube - Gothla US Panel Discussion Part 4

I watched all 4 :clap: they were very educational for people with question, and for me I just loved watching you guys talk about Gothic belly dance, I so wish I could make it to one of the Gothla shows, maybe I will in the near future. Thank you again for the post

 

[meddevi]

I watched all 4 :clap: they were very educational for people with question, and for me I just loved watching you guys talk about Gothic belly dance, I so wish I could make it to one of the Gothla shows, maybe I will in the near future. Thank you again for the post

Thanks! I'm not sure if there will be more Gothla US's (I stepped down as co-producer to be able to focus more on my own region, and the new dates conflicted with events I was already booked at, but I also have heard anything else about it happening, so...) - but in 2012, I am producing "Waking Persephone" - which will be a New England-based event - less festival-like than Gothla, more focused on education and hearing new voices in the dance - so that won't be as far away from you: Waking Persephone: Dancing Through The Dark & Unusual 2012

Was planning on being at "Art of the Belly" this weekend, but a crisis at work has called me elsewhere this weekend, so I won't be able to make it down - but I'll be at Spring Caravan in May - are you planning on coming up for that?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Thanks, Aziyade. When my shift is finished all I want to do is go home, get out of these boots, put on my bunny slippers, and read somthing worthwhile on the computer. You've given me much to consider.

[I made up the bunny slippers but everything else was factual.]

Hey bunny slippers rock. I have 2 pair.

It occurred to me later that Frankenstein was published in 1818, and if I remember Victoria did not become Queen until 1837. Forgive me if I'm wrong, or if I'm right and just being too picky. Dracula would definitely be Victorian.

I misspoke -- call it a criticism of "nineteenth century parenting techniques," and the abandoned child. Mary alludes to both Montaigne and Rousseau in this book and in other writings, and even in Frankenstein questions, as Montaigne did, whether or not an abandoned and therefore "broken" child can become a functional member of society.

Personally I see a lot more in the book than a criticism of science, or the Promethean ethic, but I think you have to look at it in context with other works of the time and against the Romantics.

I'm glad that the majority of Christians do not see bellydance as harmful, but in the past they did. Personally as a Christian I believe in the First Commandment, but as an American I'm very grateful that we have the First Amendment too.

I've seen religion used to condemn the most banal things and used to excuse the most horrendous. I'm long over trying to convince people that they're WRONG! lol.

But belly dance may well predate Islam in North Africa and the Mediterranean. We have writings from Juvenal and Martial that seem to describe (or that are often used as justification for the ancient history of) belly dance, and those are from about 350-400 years before Muhammed.

I do like your quote

 

[goddessyasaman]

Thanks! I'm not sure if there will be more Gothla US's (I stepped down as co-producer to be able to focus more on my own region, and the new dates conflicted with events I was already booked at, but I also have heard anything else about it happening, so...) - but in 2012, I am producing "Waking Persephone" - which will be a New England-based event - less festival-like than Gothla, more focused on education and hearing new voices in the dance - so that won't be as far away from you: Waking Persephone: Dancing Through The Dark & Unusual 2012

Was planning on being at "Art of the Belly" this weekend, but a crisis at work has called me elsewhere this weekend, so I won't be able to make it down - but I'll be at Spring Caravan in May - are you planning on coming up for that?

Well thats to bad I was performing at the Art of the Belly but I got called away so I had to give up my slot , I missed the call in date on the spring caravan for this year I will plan to make it to next years event though, it would be so awsome to meet you I just love your dance style
I was kind of upset for a bit on not being able to perform at the "Art of the Belly" cause I have yet to really perform my Fusion style for all to see, I have danced it at a small show a bit but only a veil dance which did'nt show a lot of my moves but I hope to soon, I have perfected it a bit, I'm going to check out the Waking Persephone sounds awsome

 

[meddevi]

Well thats to bad I was performing at the Art of the Belly but I got called away so I had to give up my slot , I missed the call in date on the spring caravan for this year I will plan to make it to next years event though, it would be so awsome to meet you I just love your dance style
I was kind of upset for a bit on not being able to perform at the "Art of the Belly" cause I have yet to really perform my Fusion style for all to see, I have danced it at a small show a bit but only a veil dance which did'nt show a lot of my moves but I hope to soon, I have perfected it a bit, I'm going to check out the Waking Persephone sounds awsome

Always is a bummer when you have something planned, and it doesn't work out. But if its do-able, I'd recommend asking to be on the waitlist for Spring Caravan - things are always moving/changing, and even if you missed the call-in, there's a good chance you'll get a spot before the event, or the day-of. Do you got to Rakkasah East? I'll be there as well, be great to meet you

 

[goddessyasaman]

Always is a bummer when you have something planned, and it doesn't work out. But if its do-able, I'd recommend asking to be on the waitlist for Spring Caravan - things are always moving/changing, and even if you missed the call-in, there's a good chance you'll get a spot before the event, or the day-of. Do you got to Rakkasah East? I'll be there as well, be great to meet you

My time so far has not given me a opening for it but I really want to, I'm going to try and perform at a competition this year, though I have been dancing for years now I have yet to do a comp so I thought I'd give it a try (all festivals and paid perfomances so far) I will ask about the waiting list that would be so awsome, if not I will try for next year

 

[Erik]

But belly dance may well predate Islam in North Africa and the Mediterranean. We have writings from Juvenal and Martial that seem to describe (or that are often used as justification for the ancient history of) belly dance, and those are from about 350-400 years before Muhammed.

I do like your quote

I like your quote too, and I hope no one gets mad at me for going off-topic. [After all, we're supposed to be talking about Gothic belly dancers in black bedlahs, playing with their little spiders and bats.]

It appears that in the 1970's there was a noble effort to go back to be beginning, and maybe some went a little too far back, all the way to prehistoric times. Yet, I did find the writings of Juvenal and Martial intriquing because of the location; North Aftrica and the Med, and knowing that the Berbers and other people were in North Africa long before the Arabs arrived. If true, it would certainly make the dance older than Islam, and perhaps even older than Christianity. Thoughts like these make you wish for a time machine, don't they?

 

[Kjesta]

You remember the discussion of Steampunk on Tribe? Well, now I'm wondering if it is a more sanitized version of Gothic, for people who like the connection with a more romantic era but are just not comfortable with the devil faces and all that.

Just jumping in here to say that I don't think this is true. Steampunk is not just watered-down goth. If you look at historic reenactment (there's a huge scene of very realistic recreations of mediaeval life, for example), people generally love romanticising older eras or even just looking at it with all its shortcomings, too. Steampunk, however, is the nostalgia for a time that, as such, has never existed. It's toying with the thought of what the world would be like if it had gotten stuck somewhere in the Victorian society setting and steam engines had remained the most dominant technology rather than electricity and such. That's very different from the gothic subculture as I know it, and goths (as in, including "old school" goths) are still quite prevalent in Germany.

Also, I don't think Gothic subculture is necessary out to provoke only. I know married women with children, women who knit and sew and cook and are vegan, guys who are accountants, etc that are goth. It's also about an aesthetic and about embracing morbid ideas and such.

I don't think having death as a major theme is un-Christian. Ever had a look at art and literature from the baroque era? The three main themes are memento mori, vanitas and carpe diem. Remember that you will die, the duality of beauty and decay and make use of the present because you will die soon. Skeletons, skulls, hourglasses and other represantives of death are everywhere in baroque art, right amidst bowls of fruit, flowers and pieces of jewellery.

That said, I don't identify with the Christian faith and tend to have a look at the universe as a whole, including death as something that is very natural and should be embraced as much as life. I suppose I see the issue differently.