Appearance is Important

[Ariadne]

Good point, BUT to be fair ... it's an English-language book, by a Russian author. I'm not entirely surprised it's not well known in say, Japan.

I majored in English Literature.

Yes but be honest, how many people that didn't major in English lit and are under say... 30 would know about that anymore? I didn't learn about it in school or college and only found out because they made a movie based on the book. All the publicity was phrased in a way like everyone should know about it and I had to go look it up (and just for the record I am an avid reader). That was in '97. It's been another 14 years and now we have this underground fashion style working it's way in. I could see it replacing it in meaning quite easily.

It doesn't surprise me that Japanese people might not be overly familiar with Lolita. Americans might be somewhat familiar with the classic "Pillow Book" in Japan, but how many of us have read (or even know about ) the Japanese modern classics "Ripening Summer" or the "Wind-up Bird Chronicles" ?

No, I would agree that we're probably not since I've never heard of them and I know many an otaku. Are they good?



I guess the real question is how this all effects fashion though and whether that is going to end up being reflected in bellydance costuming? Part of dressing appropriately for dancing is also knowing your audience. I can see how some tribal fusion style costuming could appeal to a Gothic Lolita but if the real meaning behind the movement is a reclamation of femininity on the woman's own terms are we also going to see a resurrection of more feminine and frilly clothing in fashion? Come to think of it I keep running into that "reclamation" concept. It's as if in order to reject the concept of woman being weak they had to give up any fashion that could appear "weak" as well and now women want them back. Are we seeing a change in our culture about what is "feminine" and will that change have an effect on the impression our own costumes make?

...am I reaching or is this a legitimate question?
How many women love BD because "it makes them feel like a princess?" (Seriously, I've heard that more then once.)

 

[Shanazel]

Suggested reading for anyone who is interested but simply cannot make it through Nabakov or who is just interested in a very fine book:

Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nafisi.

One of the few books I ever read in which I made marginal comments and noted questions for myself to pursue.

but how many of us have read (or even know about ) the Japanese modern classics "Ripening Summer" or the "Wind-up Bird Chronicles" ?

Me, me! Wind-up Bird Chronicles was amazing and readily available in English at a good bookstore.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Yes but be honest, how many people that didn't major in English lit and are under say... 30 would know about that anymore? I didn't learn about it in school or college and only found out because they made a movie based on the book. All the publicity was phrased in a way like everyone should know about it and I had to go look it up (and just for the record I am an avid reader). That was in '97. It's been another 14 years and now we have this underground fashion style working it's way in. I could see it replacing it in meaning quite easily.

This reminds me of a great quote from the film Donnie Darko:

Rose Darko: Kitty do you even know who Graham Greene is?
Kitty Farmer: I think we have all seen “Bonanza”

LOL.

The bolded part is possible. But we are talking about an extremely insignificant blip on the fashion radar. If it gets more popular and oozes into mainstream American Wal-Mart fashion, we may have just that situation.


No, I would agree that we're probably not since I've never heard of them and I know many an otaku. Are they good?

I guess the real question is how this all effects fashion though and whether that is going to end up being reflected in bellydance costuming?

In the early 90s we had the Edwardian revival in fashion, which could have been a precursor to the Victorian Goth look, but it's still hardly mainstream and hardly a September Issue issue.

If even ONE percent of real professional dancers started buying costumes in this vein, then I would say it is making an impact on bellydance fashion. But none of the Egyptian designers are into it, and it really seems like even the Tribal Fusion pros are "over it."

if the real meaning behind the movement is a reclamation of femininity on the woman's own terms are we also going to see a resurrection of more feminine and frilly clothing in fashion?

As far as I can tell, this is by and large a Japanese thing, and even then a very small subculture of the Subculture. Women in the US are composed of two groups -- young slender girls who will wear anything in fashion, and the rest of us. And the rest of us don't want frills. We want youthful, but there is still a line between Juniors and Misses, and that line seems to be ruffled. Missoni just put frills on the runway, but when the garments get to the stores, they will always look much more "sensible."

Come to think of it I keep running into that "reclamation" concept. It's as if in order to reject the concept of woman being weak they had to give up any fashion that could appear "weak" as well and now women want them back. Are we seeing a change in our culture about what is "feminine" and will that change have an effect on the impression our own costumes make?

There is an AWESOME show running on Sundance right now called "Love/Lust" and it addresses the impact of fashion on culture and vice versa. You should check it out! It's really interesting to see how the two are connected and how "femininity" has changed through the years.

How many women love BD because "it makes them feel like a princess?" (Seriously, I've heard that more then once.)

Yep, and how many gravitate to Tribal because they reject "sequins and glitter and all that Barbie crap."

There is room for all of us, apparently

 

[goddessyasaman]

Like a normal child. Not significantly different in any way.



It's not about being sexually precocious. It's about being overly, ridiculously feminine, in what is perceived as a juvenile way because of style rules. We really only allow CHILDREN to dress in frills and ruffles and lace. It seems like once we menstruate, we have to abandon the frills and ruffles for clothing less "juvenile" and more mature. I don't know if the same applies in Japan? It seems so.

In a way, it's maybe kind of like when women said "Why can't we wear pants like men?" Why is a pair of pants a MAN'S garment? I guess maybe they're asking why ruffles and frills and lace has to be a CHILD'S garment.

We had a similar argument in the US over animation. People used to believe that if a film was animated, it had to be juvenile. Then along comes Fritz the Cat and Heavy Metal, and artists decided to "reclaim" animation as a viable artistic medium for adults as well.




If I remember correctly, her real name is Delores. He calls her Lolita, probably referring to the way, in Russian, you make a diminutive of the name, thus both "infantalizing" the person and also using it as a term of endearment.

Nabokov seemed to have arbitrarily chosen the name for his character, based possibly on a person he once knew. Why and how authors name characters is often a mystery even to the writer. Why did George Lucas choose "Leia" as his princess's name?

The Japanese fashion "Lolita" term comes not from the novel but from another book called the Lolita Complex, which itself references the Nabokov novel. Thus you get Loli-Com, which became Lolicon.


Just for the record, I obviously condemn child molesting, but there is a lot more to the novel than that. I think it's in some ways similar to Bret Easton Ellis's novel "American Psycho," in that how you feel while being in the mind of the narrator is part of the art of the book.

It seems Linked to the endearment to me and maybe the words meaning as well (though I don't think they thought it through that much), I've studied all about Lola Goth's as I'd like to know all I can yet I still wonder about the minds of people then again I over think things .

I am a fiction writer and I may be different but I put thought into my characters name. I wonder if he based it from a real event, yet there is no way to know unless the writer was asked as we fiction writers can create things no one would think.

Yeah I don't like pants because I see them as a mans garment, But in belly dance I will ware tribal yoga pants as I like the look and I have only owned one pair of jeans, I just love skirts I guess, if I do ware my yoga pants I have to ware a skirt on top :lol: thats just me, I'm odd what can I say.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I wonder if he based it from a real event, yet there is no way to know unless the writer was asked as we fiction writers can create things no one would think.
.

Actually, he mentions this in the afterward of the book.

from wiki:

Nabokov adds that "the initial shiver of inspiration" for Lolita "was somehow prompted by a newspaper story about an ape in the Jardin des Plantes who, after months of coaxing by a scientist, produced the first drawing ever charcoaled by an animal: this sketch showed the bars of the poor creature's cage".[41] Neither the article nor the drawing has been recovered.

Other possible real-life prototypes

In addition to the possible prototypes of Lewis Carroll and Charlie Chaplin mentioned above in Allusions, Alexander Dolinin suggests [34] that the prototype of Lolita was 11-year-old Florence Horner, kidnapped in 1948 by 50-year-old mechanic Frank La Salle, who had caught her stealing a five-cent notebook. La Salle traveled with her over various states for 21 months and is believed to have raped her. He claimed that he was an FBI agent and threatened to "turn her in" for the theft and to send her to "a place for girls like you." The Horner case was not widely reported, but Dolinin notes various similarities in events and descriptions.

While Nabokov had already used the same basic idea — that of a child molester and his victim booking into an hotel as father and daughter — in his then-unpublished 1939 work Volshebnik (Волшебник), the La Salle case is mentioned explicitly in Chapter 33 of Part II:

Had I done to Dolly, perhaps, what Frank Lasalle, a fifty-year-old mechanic, had done to eleven-year-old Sally Horner in 1948?

Heinz von Lichberg's "Lolita"

German academic Michael Maar's book The Two Lolitas[35] describes his recent discovery of a 1916 German short story titled "Lolita" about a middle-aged man travelling abroad who takes a room as a lodger and instantly becomes obsessed with the preteen girl (also named Lolita) who lives in the same house. Maar has speculated that Nabokov may have had cryptomnesia (a "hidden memory" of the story that Nabokov was unaware of) while he was composing Lolita during the 1950s. Maar says that until 1937 Nabokov lived in the same section of Berlin as the author, Heinz von Eschwege (pen name: Heinz von Lichberg), and was most likely familiar with his work, which was widely available in Germany during Nabokov's time there.[36][37] The Philadelphia Inquirer, in the article "Lolita at 50: Did Nabokov take literary liberties?" says that, according to Maar, accusations of plagiarism should not apply and quotes him as saying: "Literature has always been a huge crucible in which familiar themes are continually recast... Nothing of what we admire in Lolita is already to be found in the tale; the former is in no way deducible from the latter." See also Jonathan Lethem in Harper's Magazine on this story.[38]

 

[goddessyasaman]

Actually, he mentions this in the afterward of the book.

from wiki:

Nabokov adds that "the initial shiver of inspiration" for Lolita "was somehow prompted by a newspaper story about an ape in the Jardin des Plantes who, after months of coaxing by a scientist, produced the first drawing ever charcoaled by an animal: this sketch showed the bars of the poor creature's cage".[41] Neither the article nor the drawing has been recovered.

Other possible real-life prototypes

In addition to the possible prototypes of Lewis Carroll and Charlie Chaplin mentioned above in Allusions, Alexander Dolinin suggests [34] that the prototype of Lolita was 11-year-old Florence Horner, kidnapped in 1948 by 50-year-old mechanic Frank La Salle, who had caught her stealing a five-cent notebook. La Salle traveled with her over various states for 21 months and is believed to have raped her. He claimed that he was an FBI agent and threatened to "turn her in" for the theft and to send her to "a place for girls like you." The Horner case was not widely reported, but Dolinin notes various similarities in events and descriptions.

While Nabokov had already used the same basic idea — that of a child molester and his victim booking into an hotel as father and daughter — in his then-unpublished 1939 work Volshebnik (Волшебник), the La Salle case is mentioned explicitly in Chapter 33 of Part II:

Had I done to Dolly, perhaps, what Frank Lasalle, a fifty-year-old mechanic, had done to eleven-year-old Sally Horner in 1948?

Heinz von Lichberg's "Lolita"

German academic Michael Maar's book The Two Lolitas[35] describes his recent discovery of a 1916 German short story titled "Lolita" about a middle-aged man travelling abroad who takes a room as a lodger and instantly becomes obsessed with the preteen girl (also named Lolita) who lives in the same house. Maar has speculated that Nabokov may have had cryptomnesia (a "hidden memory" of the story that Nabokov was unaware of) while he was composing Lolita during the 1950s. Maar says that until 1937 Nabokov lived in the same section of Berlin as the author, Heinz von Eschwege (pen name: Heinz von Lichberg), and was most likely familiar with his work, which was widely available in Germany during Nabokov's time there.[36][37] The Philadelphia Inquirer, in the article "Lolita at 50: Did Nabokov take literary liberties?" says that, according to Maar, accusations of plagiarism should not apply and quotes him as saying: "Literature has always been a huge crucible in which familiar themes are continually recast... Nothing of what we admire in Lolita is already to be found in the tale; the former is in no way deducible from the latter." See also Jonathan Lethem in Harper's Magazine on this story.[38]

I never read the afterward in the book, thanks since I missed it.
Now I'm like "Really he wrote it from a true store" I like real fiction I'm not into mixing the two, either you write a fictional store(though it's some fiction because he added unknow facts I guess) or a true store, but thats just me, my fault from not reading his afterwards.

But then again this type of book is not one I would own, and I own about 1500 books, I borrowed it after I saw the movie a time ago.

 

[Reen.Blom]

I hope people don't use Wiki to study anything, as it can be changed by anyone, I hope people still read books, but My hope may be lost :think:

That particular book is not on my 'to read before i die' list, so yes, wiki all the way. Good enough to get a general idea. Im very picky with my time.

And Moderators, for GOODness sake, split this thread with Lolita spin off????

 

[gisela]

...

 

[goddessyasaman]

That particular book is not on my 'to read before i die' list, so yes, wiki all the way. Good enough to get a general idea. Im very picky with my time.

And Moderators, for GOODness sake, split this thread with Lolita spin off????

I understand, but you see I'm a Book freak I have a libary in my house that I built so you could say I'm a collector of books and I read a lot at least three to four books a week, if I'm not dancing or writing I have a book with me :lol:

I agree with this I think it should be in the offtopic section or something, This has nothing to do with Belly dance now, at least it does not seem so unless we are talking about bellydance costumes that are lolita style. and thats not whats going on here.

 

[Darshiva]

Reen - I've actually been debating that for days, however, it does keep tying back quite nicely to the topic at hand, and it is an interesting spin on it. For the moment I am reluctant to split it off for that reason. If the derailment becomes less relevant to the original topic, a split will happen. In the meantime, please be kind enough to refrain from "shouting". Your message will be read regardless of size.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

personally I think the derailment did the thread a favor, but I'm full of snark this morning.

 

[Reen.Blom]

In the meantime, please be kind enough to refrain from "shouting". Your message will be read regardless of size.

What REALLY? :think::think::think: Would never have thought....

And by the way, EXCESSIVE use of caps is a no no, but OK for emphasis, I know the rules, Miss Moderator, been around long enough, ya know???

 

[Shanazel]

Well, being a bit deaf myself, perhaps I do hear better when people write in caps.

This is an excellent discussion that has followed the normal path such a discussion would take if we were all sitting around with cups of tea talking to each other. I am learning all sorts of stuff and am afraid if we split the thread off we'd lose the imputus of the conversation.

 

[Rania]

I like to see many "types" belly dancers preform. If a girl is super skinny/flat chested she can look beautiful as a belly dancer, the "ideal" in betwen weight is fine to, and plus size belly dancers I have seen pleanty I enjoy watching dance. Blondes, red head dark hair. Really variety is fine with me. While people are entitled to watch the preformers of there choice by "looks", However, I think all sizes and shapes can look beautiful .

Weight, hair color, and ethnic, diversity in modeling and dancing or entertaintment in genereal to be a wonderfull thing. It helps put a stop to body image issues allot of woman/girls face today.

 

[motorcyclemama]

I watched a very short and obese belly dancer light up the room with her rendition of "Jump in the Line." She didn't have the same kind of appeal as a taller, voluptuous but not obese woman, but it was entertaining.

Seems like there's something for everyone in the BD world.