Something all men need to understand

[Zorba]

When I meet a woman for the first time like Zorba, my eyes connect with jewellery and often it is the jewellery that attracts me, as sometimes I make jewellery then to me naturally I will be attracted to it, usually working out how it was made in my head and conversation starters are usually about it and that is about as far as it gets as I have been accused of not taking interest in the past when signals were being put out, but that's the ASD, it 's not that I am not attracted, it is that I don't understand the signals and what response there should be.

So women are safe with me, some come to find that out for themselves but others are wary and I do understand why, and I do not blame them.

Pretty much. I almost never hear/understand "the signals" either. As an Aspie, I'm pretty clueless to such things. It has to be BLATANT. My wife will often tell me, "Did you know so-and-so was hitting on you?". Nope - not a clue. I'm just not interested - I guess many/most guys look for, or are attuned to, such "signals". I'm not.

If "the signals" are BLATANT enough for me to figure it out - I am *SO* outta there! This would be the "Feral Woman" behavior previously mentioned. Fortunately, I generally feel very safe among my dance sisters. I've found its often better for me to stay with my dance sisters than it is to mingle at a GP event.

My wife and I discussed this subject last nite. She reports that she hasn't had a whole lot of problem in the area - one male co-worker once told her that she puts out a "I'm married, leave me alone" vibe.

 

[khanjar]

And added to my last post, another reason why I might be the way I am with women is because today I had it confirmed I do indeed have Klinefelter Syndrome as well as the ASD, in fact it was through the UK leading expert on adult asperger's Doctor Simon Baron-Cohens writings I first picked up on the KS, so I did the research via PubMed and other places and ordered the tests and confirmation came through today; 47 XXY. So a genetic difference and so likely a difference in thinking even if the ASD was not present, but according to Baron-Cohen he theorises a link between ASD and KS and in my case his theory is correct.

But not all men are alike just like not all women are alike as there are many genetic variations of the bog standard typical male XY and female XX, maybe they have always been there, but the ones that women perceive as trouble, who knows they might be a minority, but because minorities destroy the standing of majorities in most other cases, maybe it is the same in this case too. So we must all remember not to judge a book by it's cover.

 

[Shanazel]

Actually, I'm not "dark"!

You are tall, dark, and handsome.

Get. Over. It.

:lol:

Re: books as a deterent. Just the simple act of reading a book can set some folks off on a nasty tirade.

When my children were in morning play school, I enjoyed going to a local fast food place for coffee, a sausage biscuit, and a peaceful hour with my current novel. I didn't mind occasional interuptions, but one day some old guy slide into the seat across the table from me and announced, "People who read are selfish."

He went on to explain that people who read are deliberately and rudely depriving "shade tree philosophers" like him the right to expound on their views on life. "You could learn more listening to me than reading that book. People who write books think they're better than anyone else, but I could write a book if I wanted to." I abandoned all pretense to having good manners at that point and suggested he go write a book immediately, preferably somewhere far from me.

Oooo, you wanna talk huffy? You'd a thought I'd insulted his manhood. I chalked up the score Bitch of the World 1 Shade Tree Bore 0, but he sure harshed my mellow.

If I want to be left alone, I take my needlework. Not only is it not condusive to initiating male/female conversation, but I am armed with a sharp needle and a wicked looking pair of scissors. It also helps to wear glasses so you can glare at any offenders over the top of the rims like their worst nightmare of their junior high school librarian.

 

[Zorba]

You are tall, dark, and handsome.

Get. Over. It.

I guess that's why I have alabaster skin! :lol:

 

[Shanazel]

Alabaster skin merely accentuates your dark hair. Choose a brighter red lipstick and we can start calling you Snow White.

 

[Ariadne]

:lol: I'm having flashbacks to my favorite fairytales.

I don't remember seeing this kind of aggression in my city five years ago, even though I took the bus frequently. Now I see it every time I go downtown. I've only been a target once, but black women who pass by these men are likely to get the full treatment.

I was waiting for someone to comment but no one has. That is just horrible! Sometimes I wonder if the migration from areas like that has caused it to concentrate and the behavior to increase exponentially.

 

[Zorba]

Alabaster skin merely accentuates your dark hair. Choose a brighter red lipstick and we can start calling you Snow White.

Said with a droll smile: Yea, that's just what I need - brighter red lipstick...

 

[sultan]

In a recent thread I made mention of the fact that the victimization of women is a universal problem. Some people initially thought that I was implying that the specific problem mentioned in the thread was not so bad etc ...
I probably will not contribute much to this, but I think if people can have a forum to brainstorm, that is a good thing.

A very interesting comment. However, one must never lose sight of the fact that inter gender troubles are decidedly NOT a one way street:

Male Victims of Domestic Violence - The Hidden Story - YouTube


When I was a law school student many years ago we had a case of a woman who falsely accused men of raping her on eight different occasions. In each instance there was a conviction based on her testimony alone. Then, after spending all the money she got from victim's compensation accounts, she moved to a different state and again falsely accused a man of raping her. This time she got caught. Strangely enough she was caught by a student working in a DA's office as the name and face of the woman sounded familiar. When a public attorney was assigned to defend the woman, she falsely accused that lawyer of raping her in a conference room even though police were in the next room. How many years those other innocent men spent in jail and the terrible ordeal they and their families faced are known only to God. Now imagine yourself or a family member in that same situation.

Yes, it is true that men do assault or harass women. But women do it to men as well. The consequences are just as bad if not worse for these men and their families. That is something all women, all men, and all of society needs to understand.



See also,


False Accusations | National Coalition For Men (NCFM)

 

[Aniseteph]

But not all men are alike just like not all women are alike as there are many genetic variations of the bog standard typical male XY and female XX, maybe they have always been there, but the ones that women perceive as trouble, who knows they might be a minority, but because minorities destroy the standing of majorities in most other cases, maybe it is the same in this case too. So we must all remember not to judge a book by it's cover.

I am sure no one here is judging a book by it's male cover - I hope all the females here have plenty of examples of men in their lives who are just ordinary decent folk, and do not see men as potential harassers and rapists just because they are men. For me it's behaviour and situations that put you on alert, not maleness or femaleness. Some women are a lot more threatening than some men.

Actually there aren't that many chromosomal variations with X and Y - the vast majority of people are XX or XY. Turner’s (XO) has an incidence of 2 in 10000 female births, Klinefelter’s (XXY) and XYY are each 10 in 10000 male births, and XXX 10 in 10000 female births. Four or more copies happens but it's even rarer. I guess YO or YY is incompatible with life.

However within having XX or XY I agree there is a huge range. I am pretty confident that being XX does not doom you to shopping, cupcakes, shoes and kittens, or the XY to beer appreciation, football, cars and mending things in sheds. And harassing women.

Yes, it is true that men do assault or harass women. But women do it to men as well. The consequences are just as bad if not worse for these men and their families. That is something all women, all men, and all of society needs to understand

For a start I am put off that clip by the idea that female on male domestic violence is half the story. HALF? Please.

But WORSE? How can you say worse? I agree it is terrible for anyone to be a victim of violence and harassment from the opposite sex, or anyone for that matter, but in the context of cases like women getting continual harassment from strangers as part of their daily lives, or in some societies being punished again for being abused it because you are perceived as somehow culpable, worse does not cut it with me.

It's not just "over there" and honour killings and all that. There's a scandal in the UK at the moment about a celebrity DJ now dead who is being accused of abusing underage girls (Well whodathought it. I always thought he was skeevy as hell). Apparently plenty of people knew, but he was the big star who raised lots of charity money, and if the girls involved or their friends or family or anyone else not in a position of power (ie. rich white male high up in the media or establishment) had tried to say anything back then they would have got punished in some way, not him. It's not just the abuse, wrong whoever is doing it to who, it's that there's a whole CULTURE effectively condoning that abuse. There is a difference between a man feeling ashamed and that he won't be understood or taken seriously if he complains of being abused by a woman, and the feeling of whole sections of societies that abuse and harassment is just something you have to put up with as your lot in life. [/rant]

 

[sultan]

Aniseteph,

half the story. HALF? Please.

But WORSE?

Some of the evidence in the source presented in that video is derived from the government so that you may check out it for verification. Many other studies suggest at least half of all reported sexual assaults are faked, some even more. Having worked in the legal field I can confirm that some portion of these studies are accurate. You may check youtube for other videos and ask their presenters for further evidence of the claims made in those presentations.

Worse? In my past studies, I came across numerous cases of men thrown in prison for crimes they did not commit. Some were beaten and gang raped as they awaited trial only to be released because the accuser did not show up for trial or recanted. Others released because of mistaken identity or because DNA did not match the crime scene but only after languishing in prison for a prolonged period. Imagine if your son had been falsely accused, spent numerous months or years in jail for a crime he did not commit, forcibly gang raped in prison, forced to perform oral sex with syphilitic prisoners, got AIDS, and was now forced to wear a medical bag to hold anal seepage - could this possibly change your mind as to whether such a situation may be considered worse by some?

By the way, the most violent instances of domestic violence I've seen deal with homosexual couples of both genders. For example,

She Stole My Voice - A Documentary About Lesbian Rape, now available on DVD


That is not to unnecessarily change the topic of the OP. But all this is designed to show that, again, sexual violence or harassment is NOT a one way street. That this social disorder has many facets of which society either denies or dismisses as inconsequential. That the victims of these disorders are often harmed beyond repair while society smugly disses them as if they were the perpetrators or as if they somehow deserved what they got. Then we as a society have to pay the multimillion dollar welfare bill for the prison gang rape victims now suffering from AIDS, we have to pay those men who were falsely imprisoned as compensation for time loss from work and for the humiliation they suffered, and the cycle continues because as this video shows above, nothing is done about any of it.

 

[Sophia Maria]

That is not to unnecessarily change the topic of the OP. But all this is designed to show that, again, sexual violence or harassment is NOT a one way street. That this social disorder has many facets of which society either denies or dismisses as inconsequential. That the victims of these disorders are often harmed beyond repair while society smugly disses them as if they were the perpetrators or as if they somehow deserved what they got. Then we as a society have to pay the multimillion dollar welfare bill for the prison gang rape victims now suffering from AIDS, we have to pay those men who were falsely imprisoned as compensation for time loss from work and for the humiliation they suffered, and the cycle continues because as this video shows above, nothing is done about any of it.

I would agree with you that people, regardless of their gender, do horrible things to each other. It usually manifests in different ways depending on gender, though (i.e. women do not commit very many violent sexual crimes, for example, and men tend to be arrested for aggressive behavior more than women). It is a symptom of something wrong with society, and I think that was addressed well when people here talked about "rudeness" and people in general thinking they can get away with anything they want.

You have valid points, but you actually are straying from the issue of the OP. The OP's story is about a woman harassed violently, in public. The OP was NOT complaining about the general sickness of a society and how people should be more considerate towards each other. The original purpose of the thread was to illuminate how it is different to be threatened as a woman, and that it is different to walk alone as a woman. And it is much different.

Yes, sometimes men get raped or sexually assaulted. But does he, everytime he goes out past sunset (or even in the light of day, for goodness's sake)...does he have to think like me when I go out after sunset? Does he think about what exactly he's going to wear, if he should wear tight pants or baggy pants, maybe a belt too to make attempted rape more difficult? Does he worry that his long hair is going to give him away as a woman walking alone? Does he ever have to worry that people will start shouting at him or forcing him to engage in social interaction if his clothes show his curves too much?

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I'm glad you posted this. In my own lifetime, most of my experience with the opposite sex in general has been negative as 99% of the time when I did allow myself to be more open, most of that time men just wanted to have something to do with me in a demaning way. So now I ignore most of them, as I do take public transportation and work in a big city. There also have been times that I've had to get quite vocal since a subtle turnoff didn't do any good. I've also had to report a few who were serious threats, and some of the personnel cared, but the bigwigs were more concerned about getting sued and didn't really kill themselves trying to help out their harrassed customers in general (unless it was in a wealthy neighborhood, then they couldn't do enough).

So at the risk of being called a "cold bitch" I'd rather take that than be a helpless victim. Either way we can't win when we just want to be respected like human beings. But many times this behavior does catch up with these guys as I've seen them pick on the wrong woman one day who has the power and the backup to really put them in their place. I've even dated one or two guys who rode my train, and when I broke up with them, you would be amazed at the boys party they gathered against me for having the audacity to end the relationship. So I now stay to myself more and more, enjoy my own company because it's just better to do so.

I also grew up without a father or a brother, and believe me, you would be amazed at how many people pounce on that vulnerability. So I've had a lifetime of practice in this area.

And to be fair OTOH, there are men out there who have been nothing more than the total opposite, like Big Jim, Zorba and Khanjar - just wish they were in the majority.

 

[sultan]

you actually are straying from the issue of the OP

I distinctly acknowledged that already for the purposes which I stated. In fact, I can give you many more examples of other such double standards in our daily conduct. Again, the consequences are far more tragic and harmful to men, to women, and to the greater society. I could have started a new topic but I believe most here are genuinely open minded enough to agree that men are decidedly not the exclusive problem. And that was my purpose in making that initial reply to the OP.

 

[Amulya]

I wonder if where you live counts for this issue too. I have mostly lived in places where I felt very safe. But I did feel uncomfortable in some places in Amsterdam were there always used to be groups of men hanging around on street corners. However, those have never caused me any trouble. It's just that we women don't feel comfortable with men just hanging around like that.

Two weeks ago a woman has been abducted, raped and murdered in my town (Jill Meagher) by a man who was caught within a few days. She was walking around in an area where thee were people around and you wouldn't expect this to happen in this city. I have no idea how he managed to grab her without being seen or heard.

And the scary thing is: the guy who did it already raped 6 women in the past. Apparently he had had therapy and was 'cured' and set free...

We have had more sexual harassments etc here, but it's not that often as in other places and when you walk outdoors in the evening it all seems very peaceful. BUT, I always make sure my friends see me stepping in a taxi and I even look at the drivers picture to memorise what he looks like. I don't easily trust people so I keep being aware, even though I don't have that many nasty experiences (as an adult. As a teen sexual harassment was constant, but by guys from school)

 

[Aniseteph]

But all this is designed to show that, again, sexual violence or harassment is NOT a one way street.

Nobody said it was.

I could have started a new topic but I believe most here are genuinely open minded enough to agree that men are decidedly not the exclusive problem...

Men are not the exclusive problem? In what context? In terms of the original article, yes, yes they are, absolutely. SOME men, not all men. But enough men in certain (sub)cultures that feel behaving that way is normal/ OK, enough that she's blogging about it (not "hey the weirdest thing happened today", more "OFFS stop this") and enough that plenty of us recognise it.

It's very specific. It's not that she is getting domestic abuse (agreed, two way street), or workplace harassment (ditto). It's not that she's been attacked in a dangerous area -equal opportunities there. It's that she is going about her business in a public place and as a woman is routinely on the receiving end of disrespectful and/or intimidating behaviour from men. With an undercurrent that she should be grateful.

The context is the whole point, and despite the best efforts of drunken hen parties I don't believe it is quite a two way street yet.

 

[Amulya]

The article in the OP's post was about getting abuse due to being a dancer. That's very specific and quite regional thing to happen, although I have encountered in Holland too in the past, also from Dutch people. But not that badly compared to her horrible story! Only once I got horrible groping but I punched the guy (turkish narrow minded old guy) one.

It is normal for topics here to change around a bit and that makes things interesting. I hope that guys aren't going to feel bad due to this tread. You guys here are awesome and this is not directed at the men from this forum of course!

 

[Aniseteph]

I just want to point this out because otherwise my previous post may not make sense:
The OP article in this thread was about a woman in the US getting hassled on public transport - just sitting there minding her own business, not doing anything that anyone might take offence at, not acting or dressing in a way that might make anyone think she was inviting attention. Just being; and getting hassle for it. Even in the thread about the dancer who was assaulted - from what she wrote I got the impression she was there (Cairo?) as a tourist, with friends - dancing had nothing to do with it.

I absolutely agree with you Amulya it's not about making men feel bad, no one is saying anyone here is like one of those a$$****s in either story just because they are male. That would be very offensive.

I don't have an issue with off-topic drift, but I reserve the right to stay on-topic when the mood takes me.

 

[Chani]

I think this comes from the 'attachment parenting' and similar upbringing styles where kids are allowed everything, are always given compliments, are never told off, are the centre of their parents world etc. that kind of upbringing makes kids very selfish.

I'd like to address this common misconception. Attachment Parenting is not about always giving children complements nor about them being the center of their parent's world. What you are describing is referred to as "Permissive Parenting" and I agree it does make for selfish children with a sense of entitlement. Attachment Parenting OTOH is purely about parenting in a way that promotes strong attachment (bonding) between parent and child.

While I don't yell at my children or shame them or deal out punishments to my children when they misbehave that is not to say I don't guide and support them to develop into sociable and contributing adults. I support them to develop self discipline in a way that maintains our close attachment. Despite never being smacked, or even ever been given a single time out, I always get compliments on my kid's behaviour. I would say that attachment parenting actually creates more thoughtful, responsible adults than either authoritarian or permissive parenting.

 

[Amulya]

Thanks for explaining I have seen some bad example of parenting that people themselves called attachment parenting. But in their cases they never left their kids alone for a second (they slept in their parents beds for years etc), so no privacy for those kids at all (which kid doesn't want to have their own room and their own bed?) no chance to learn to be autonomous individual. That is very sad and smothering to a kid I think. But that's an extreme example which sadly is rather common

 

[Chani]

Kids need the occasional beating - spare the rod, spoil the child. The above quote is ample evidence.

I feel sad to hear sentiments like this. I strongly disagree that children need to be beaten/smacked. When you use physical punishment it causes the child to focus on the smack and how that makes them feel rather than think about how they have acted and how that made others feel. There are many ways to discipline children that don't involve violence. I've never hit my children but they don't run amok - they are better behaved than many (most) children I see around.

I don't think it's okay to hit other people. I don't think it's okay to hit people I love. I don't think it's okay to hit people who are smaller than me. So, I definitely don't think it's okay to smack my kids. I model gentleness to my children by being gentle towards them. We deal with issues but not by using violence. Not that long ago it was commonly held belief that a man was being a responsible husband if he disciplined his wife and where necessary beat her.

Christian friends who study theology have assured me that in the original translation of "spare the rod" the "rod" refers to the shepherds staff - a shepherd never beats his sheep with his staff but uses it to gently guide them, to keep them safe from harm. I agree that to leave our children without guidance is reckless and irresponsible but I have learned through my own children and observed in other families that hitting is never necessary and can harm the parent/child relationship. My kids are never afraid to come to me with anything because they aren't afraid of getting into trouble. They know I will always help them. They always have my attention as needed. They don't need to be naughty to get my attention. If they make a mistake I treat them the same as I would if my husband made a mistake - I talk to them about it. I want my kids to be internally driven to behave well not behave well to avoid being hit. I also want them to develop self discipline so that when I am not around they still behave well.

This is really OT but I really wanted to respond to the AP and beating comments in this thread.