kids bellydancing- how appropriate is it

[janaki]

Hi all,

I am prompted to post this after I have seen the video clip Maria posted and was asking for help to flag it. I was very disturbed by the way the young kids are potrayed in the clip. I was also watching clips of Kids Belly dance competition held in Moscow. Girls as young as 10 -11 are in adult style costume and doing womenly seductive moves. I am uncomfortable to watch some of the moves. I find it is not appropriate or is it? I am not against kids belly dancing. But I am not sure if it is right either. My questions are

1. Is it good to have an age restriction for Belly dancing?

2. Do think kids should learn the movements that are appropriate to their age?

3. Do you think they should have costume that are toned down to their age?

4. How do you feel to see a kid shaking her chest, shimmying crazy and undualting like there is no tomorrow?

Love to hear your comments.

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Aniseteph]

I find most of the clips of kids performing belly dancing very icky no matter how talented they are. Unless you are VERY careful it is age-inappropriate, and there are so many pervs out there that even appropriate stuff is going to draw the wrong kind of attention.

I don't think there's anything wrong with kids having lessons for fun, or to go to events with mum when they are old enough if they want. If my daughter wanted to learn and my teacher did kids classes I'd be fine with it because I trust her attitude, but some teachers... :think:, maybe not. And performing is a minefield, IMO.

I think competitions where girls are expected to dress and perform like grown women are repulsive and exploitative. Responsible adults should be protecting young girls and guiding them until they are of an age to understand what they are doing and the effect it may have.

<Mother speaks: You are not going out in that skirt>

 

[Hyacinth]

I agree with you guys - I don't like seeing kids performing bellydance in public. Like Aniseteph said, if they want to take lessons for fun, that's great. I know people say that girls in the middle east learn from a really young age from watching their mothers etc, but you don't (or I haven't, at least) see them out in two piece costumes for the general public to ogle!
My first teacher got really into doing kids classes and started a kids troupe, and although she was always pretty careful with the costuming and choreography I never felt comfortable watching it. Having said that, I've been to watch my friends' kids performing in a dance school concert (jazz, tap, singing, etc) and I thought some of the kids were presented really inappropriately for that too. Maybe I'm just an old prude!:

 

[adiemus]

I've got to agree that it's not a good sight - but I also reflect that in ballet, tap, jazz, ballroom, latin and so on they all get dressed up to the nines with the makeup and sexy moves and everything.
What I think would be nice is to have girls dressed more modestly with perhaps a choli top and full skirt or something - and definitely none of those awful video's that are on YouTube of wee girls doing the undulations and all. Firstly I'm not sure that they have the muscle development to do undulations and back bends and things safely, and secondly I think they need time to perform the dance with the appropriate depth of feeling.
So while I don't think my little voice will make a difference, AND I know that there are lots of kids dancing out there in other dance styles, perhaps on here we can avoid posting exploitative kiddy videos?
No way are we prudes - just older, wiser and a bit more careful...

 

[belly_dancer]

yeah.. it is a really fine line... I too have daughters & know what the mums feel..... but I have also been teaching for years... (I have a mother daughter class where I start the daughters @ age 11... occasionally they start @ 10...)...
Maria's disturbing video... alot of that was "off"(besides the viewpoint of the videoogapher) for me was the inappropriate costuming.... I mean we (or at least I) do not dance in a bikini top!! so even worse if too young girls do...

I have had 2 students enter (both around age 12-13 & both won) a local youth talent show... & I think the reason they won was their "appropriateness"... most of the other girls in the contest were imitating MTV type singing &/or dancing performances..... sorry... do not want my TWENTY year old doing that!!!...
oh & I do have to say... they both did sword dance (I am an American Cab Belly dancer).... & from personal experience i have noticed that w/ a prop... that the prop seems to distract from what may be considered too "sexy" a move.... (assuming of course you are not doing "weird" things "with" your prop... which i HAVE occasionally seen (shudder...gag..))...
& since I teach isolation & DANCING... the sword is more of a SKILL rather than just writhing around (mtv style) to the music... which can be very age inappropriate....(EDIT... the writhing= inappropriate.... not the prop!!!!... as long as you are PROP-er that is.... oooooh sorry... bad humor)
also.... so far... all of my younger students have been very age appropriate in their costuming... belts higher, full tops, not BRA tops, etc.....
and if they were not... I think I would be speaking to their parents...
(you are NOT going out in that skirt!!!!! 2nd that:lol::lol

oh.. btw ... last week... my 1st "youngest" student just turned 21!!!! she is still very modest & "proper" & a kick a*@ dancer too!!!!
(she dances with me professionally now)

 

[janaki]

<Mother speaks: You are not going out in that skirt>

Yep! I have heard that many times!!!

 

[adiemus]

Oooops! and I'm sure I've said it a few too...

 

[Mosaic]

As a mother and grandmother, I agree with all the above. If the girl is 10-14 or so age group then any costume should be IMO a choli style top with some fringing, older girls could choose a modest bra style top. I do like the idea of the dedicated child/youth dancer using a prop, it would take that put out there sexy look.

We hear the world over of some young girl, often prebuescent
who has been abducted etc, and gasp in horror, but personally when I see these kids wandering around in street clothes half naked, I do have to think to myself that often the inappropriate dress draws out the sickos more often that some years ago. I know that the sickos would still trawl the streets etc even if you were dressed in a sack from chin to toe, but can't some mothers AND childrens designers see that they set the kids up for attack physically and verbally. Yes everyone loves to be fashionable but there is fashion and there is 'ick' and sadly there is more 'ick' in the kids fashion industry than fashion these days!
Woops a bit off topic there. getting back to dance. maybe if young girls are learning then any comps or dance get togethers should be only for families of the girls and not open to public so the girl can show her "expertise" and the family can celebrate with her ... of course keeping the girls costume at an "appropriate" level. Ok off my soapbox

 

[Safran]

I don't have children, nor little sisters, so I guess I'll be more objective on the matter? Nah, not really... I don't think we can set an age limit as such on dancing, especially as we agree that each individual case should be treated separately. I don't mind kids taking classes, and I find it especially cool if they get to do that together with their mothers. But when it comes to performing, I prefer them to wear more covering costumes (I actually prefer the grown-up dancers do the same ) and dance folclore styles. To be honest, I think folcloric is much more fun to learn at a younger age anyways. And in the longer, more philosophical perspective, think how good knowing folk styles will influence their dancing in the future..

The sad thing is that just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is perviness... so it isn't just how we have kids perform, but also where... Haflas among your own are fine, performances to the open public are already in a bit of an uncomfortable zone...

 

[Shanazel]

I believe Maria Aya once said she preferred to keep younger girls in the folkdance classes, saving belly dance for a more mature period in their lives (correct me if I am wrong, Saint-Sin!) There was a ten year old girl in one of my first dance classes. She came with her mother and was very good, but she caught all sorts of flack after she performed in Stars of Tomorrow. People were genuinely shocked. She was so upset and embarrassed by the reactions that she quit bellydance all together, which was a crying shame. I don't believe it would've happened had she been wearing a baladi dress with a hip sash and pretty headcover instead of a beaded bedlah with a chiffon skirt slit to there. It wasn't the dance that appalled people as much as it was how the dance looked on a child dressed as an adult.

 

[KuteNurse]

I have nothing against young girls doing belly dancing as long as it is done tastefully and age appropriate. Kids have so much stresses the way it is these days...Why not let them be kids for as long as we can. There is no hurry for them to grow up.

 

[Lydia]

I dont take students under 13.....
But i dont realy have a problem with young girls dancing its so normal in the middle east,
But for sure the body,s must be covered that has to be a must i think
Than dancing and dancing is 2....the way has to be playfull and cute
so for sure there is a thin line where it is to much or to less
It has to be obvious that she is a child and not yet a woman in the way she is moving and yes deep in my heart i think it is realy for adults and kids must do like folk like mentioned above
I dont take under 13 years because to teach children is differant than adults and i know from my self that i can be a bit strickt in class and push sometimes more than what small ones can take ,and i will be worried they go home in tears..have a nice day everybody, Lydia

 

[Midoria]

I really agree that it’s a fine line. Some of the stuff I’ve seen on YouTube is just disturbing. I also agree with marriku about sticking with the folks dances.

On a positive note, I saw one group of girls dancing that I thought was really age appropriate, but it was removed by the user. Basically the girls wore peasant skirts, hip scarves, long-sleeved choli tops that only showed about an inch of skin, and headbands. The choreography was not full-out belly dancing (no undulations, etc). I would describe it as Middle Eastern-ish. They did little things like putting one hand behind the head and the other out to the side and turning in a circle to the beat, Egyptian head slides, etc. The closest thing to recognizable belly dance was the move where you sidestep and do a sharp hip lift while holding your hands in the basic position. The crowd was very enthusiastic and it was just fun to watch.

 

[Mya]

I definitely believe that it comes down to presentation - the moves used and the costuming. I was very iffy about it when i'd heard there'd be a kids performance at my first show with the old studio but when i saw it i didn't have a problem with it at all.
Kids in the shows were always dressed in harem pants, worn on the waist, not the hips and with only a small slit from the ankle to mid-calf.The tops were those handkerchief styled-diamond shaped ones - not with strings to tie but broad bands of cloth so that there was still quite a bit of cloth covering their backs. They had puffy sleeve type things on their arms as well. so add some sparkly edging and shiny colourful, material and they were pretty much covered and looked like kids,but still felt like they looked like bellydancers.
There were no sensual moves in the choreography - it was pretty much as midoria described hers above. one or two hip lifts, some simple veil work - but none of it "sultry". No undulations, no chest shaking, no oumis, no popping and locking. it was beautiful - the parents were happy, the kids were happy, the crowd loved it.

i think it's much harder to deal with the almost teenagers and early teenagers because they WANT to look like grown-up belly dancers or for the older ones they want to look sensual. I prefer then for the sake of performances that they do folkloric styles, even if they begin to learn the other stuff in class.

i agree that there is too much in this world that is ugly and forces children to grow up much faster than they should. they should never be put into a position where there is even the slightest potential for exploitation.

 

[Khaira]

Hi!


I totally agree with Maariku! Folkloric oriental dance is perfect for children: energetic, fun, educational and does include hip technique. And ofcourse the costumes are covered.
A young friend of mine from Latvia is a perfect example of this. After getting familiar with folkloric styles she has grown to be a very sweet and modest cabaret dancer. Folklore is good for beginning for children!

 

[belly_dancer]

i think it's much harder to deal with the almost teenagers and early teenagers because they WANT to look like grown-up belly dancers or for the older ones they want to look sensual.

I sooo agreee (though I have had a few be modest)... the serious girls who stick with it & actually perform w/ me tend to be super modest... but the 16-21 year olds usually start out with me being (or trying:shok: to be) way to..... well..... sexy... or their young idea of it.....(eeekkkk think MTV :shok::shok
these either fall by the wayside, or if they stick with it, really start toning it down... (I NEVER point fingers... but the girls love when I do my "this is "elegant" & this is "not" "undulation (camel) demonstration... I do a camel w/ great posture & knees together.. & then the "stripper... where is the pole??? " version & after the 1st demo 90% are better!!!!)... I actually find BD classes to be a great outlet for young women to channel their budding sexuality, with those who stay, I notice that alot of times even OUTSIDE of class they stop wearing soo much make-up & don't dress soooo in a "you are NOT going OUT in that skirt!!!" way...
my very best young dancers ALWAYS are almost waist high skirt WITH "harem" pants under & choli type tops....
in fact my star student (JUST 21, 2 wks ago) has had the curviest figure since 12!!! ... FINALLY we see JUST a bit of cleavage.. & I personally think that the line of her moves would look better if her belt was a bit lower (or she needs a form fitting baladi dress w/ a low hip line)... but she is not ready for that yet... & I cannot help but be sooo proud of her.... & I think she is setting a fine example for my younger students.
I just LOVE my young students

 

[CurlyBellyGirl]

I think that it depends on the style of clothing the children wear. A lot of cultures have dances that involve the hips and the way it's viewed also depends a lot on the culture. Children in different forms of African dance will do many dances that in American culuture we may find offensive. My MIL lives in Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast) and we have quite a few Ivorian videos that have kids doing dances that involve butt bouncing, undulations, etc. and NONE of them are done in a sexual or inappropriate manner and they all look like kids, but I could totally see a Westener judging them or looking at it as a more sexual dance when it's totally not and no one from that culutre sees it that way. Again, this is where I think cultural sensitivies come into play.

There is a very cute video of a girl age 10 at Tribal Fest that I just adore. I hope the link will work: YouTube - Chelsea performs @ Tribal Fest 6
I have shown it to my son, who is 9 and loves to dance. What I love about the video is that she is dressed like a kid and the movements are very age appropriate even with her hip and chest popping.

I think that we live in such a highly sexualized culture with MTV and pop stars dressing like porno stars that we sometimes get oversensitive forgetting that some folkloric and some cultures dance in ways that are perceived differently than they are here.

That said, I am a mother of a daughter as well and don't think it's appropriate for young girls to dance around in bras and such, but I don't really see the harm in learning belly dancing. I mean, if kids put their feeling it in, then theoretically the dancing should be done in a sweet and innoscent way. It is adults who sexualize things and relate it to sex. JMHO...

 

[Shanazel]

Chelsea wasn't belly dancing, but she sure the heck was doing some kind of dance and I loved every second of it. Thanks for the link, SBG!

 

[Maria_Aya]

I believe Maria Aya once said she preferred to keep younger girls in the folkdance classes, saving belly dance for a more mature period in their lives (correct me if I am wrong, Saint-Sin!)

You are right Shanazel

Bellydance is an art, but also have many sensual elements in it (not saying sexual which is also very common when missdone etc).

We started the kids class with Ghawazee and Raqs al Assaya this year and zills !! and they are doing just great, they love it, and they dont miss at all the 2 piece costumes, the veils etc
Also this covers all the thoughts of the parents regarding bellydance and what people say blah blah.
We are having great fun in class and its one of my beloved classes in the week

Maria Aya

 

[nicknack]

I think Assaya and zills are great choices for kids, just as long as no stick fights ensue :lol: I had one teacher who did some one off workshops at local schools and she centred it all on cane dance, the boys loved that as much as the girls.