"The Breakthrough Fusion Competition"

[Aisha Azar]

Belly dance

i didn't associate it with middle eastern dance, i associated it with Bellydance, which, at this point, is from a number of places, including the US.

Dear Cera,
Only in the minds of some dancers. Belly dance is the English, non-literal for Raqs el Sharghi. The average person in the United States and elsewhere in English speaking countries, thinks, when a person uses the term belly dance, that they are speaking of dance from the Middle East. Belly dance is not a western art form, even in the minds of the average western person.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Aniseteph]

i didn't associate it with middle eastern dance, i associated it with Bellydance, which, at this point, is from a number of places, including the US.

And there we are, back here again. That roll-eyed smiley is way too small sometimes...

 

[karena]

Dear Cera,
Only in the minds of some dancers. Belly dance is the English, non-literal for Raqs el Sharghi. The average person in the United States and elsewhere in English speaking countries, thinks, when a person uses the term belly dance, that they are speaking of dance from the Middle East. Belly dance is not a western art form, even in the minds of the average western person.
Regards,
A'isha

Dear A'isha
I'm not making a value judgement here, just an honest query that is always in my mind when this comes up. If I'm reading it right, the principle seems to be because the average person see BD in a certain way we should make sure this is what it is. So because they see the term to refer to middle eastern dance we should make sure it is middle eastern. In the UK, the average person thinks BD is pretty much akin to stripping, or at least erotic, sexy and seductive. So following the logic through, we should make this is what it is. Now I'd imagine you'd agree that we should actually try and educate people that that isn't the sum of BD. But in terms of the logic, where is the difference for you? Please see this as the genuine question it is; I'm not attacking your viewpoint, just trying to understand better
Karena

 

[Aisha Azar]

Belly dance, etc.

Dear Karena,

Dear A'isha
I'm not making a value judgement here, just an honest query that is always in my mind when this comes up. If I'm reading it right, the principle seems to be because the average person see BD in a certain way we should make sure this is what it is. So because they see the term to refer to middle eastern dance we should make sure it is middle eastern. In the UK, the average person thinks BD is pretty much akin to stripping, or at least erotic, sexy and seductive. So following the logic through, we should make this is what it is. Now I'd imagine you'd agree that we should actually try and educate people that that isn't the sum of BD. But in terms of the logic, where is the difference for you? Please see this as the genuine question it is; I'm not attacking your viewpoint, just trying to understand better
Karena

An honest question, asked without malice or nastiness, deserves a real answer!
We should make sure not to falsely advertise the dance forms and we are referring here to language issues. In Arabic it is Raqs Sharghi, or dance of The East. In French it is Danse du ventre, or dance of the abdomen. In English it is belly dance. In Turkish it is Oriental Tanza. It has its own name in Greek, German, etc. This is not just what the public thinks as such. It is the name of the dance in English. And, the public is correct in thinking it a dance from the Middle East and not a western form of dance.
Truthfully, in the Middle East and North Africa, the dance IS akin to stripping. This is not just a western thought on the subject. Myself, I see it as a Middle Eastern attitude carried over to the West. I am one of those who has no fear of the dance being sexy and seductive. It IS sexy and seductive when done properly. Without that quality of sexuality, the dance looks mighty sterile.
(Check out the Hilal Method to see what I mean.) Mouna Said and Aida Nour are two of the sexiest, most beautiful dancers ever and they positively glow with sexy seductiveness. For me, in some ways that real, honest, true sexuality IS the sum total of the dance. It includes all aspects of the dancer's personality as shown through the interpretation of very sensual, complex music. Part of the allure, the seductiveness of the dance is just that quality. It is intelligent, its is alive and it is vital to the dance, as vital as the cultural essence itself. What we educate people to in terms of belly dance, is that this wonderful, good, healthy sexuality is in good part what makes the entire world and all of us in it, go round. I do not ever try to deny that. What it is not is sleazy, ( though many 2nd rate Middle Eastern dancers would make a liar out of me...)
I hope this helps, but somehow I am not sure it will...???
Regards,
A'isha

 

[shiradotnet]

If I'm reading it right, the principle seems to be because the average person see BD in a certain way we should make sure this is what it is. So because they see the term to refer to middle eastern dance we should make sure it is middle eastern.

My logic is different from what you said.

To me, the point is that the term "belly dance" was originally applied to performances by authentic dancers from the Middle East, and became widely understood as such by the public. The term "belly dance" took on a definition, and that definition was raqs baladi.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Definition

My logic is different from what you said.

To me, the point is that the term "belly dance" was originally applied to performances by authentic dancers from the Middle East, and became widely understood as such by the public. The term "belly dance" took on a definition, and that definition was raqs baladi.

Dear Shira,
Short, sweet and accurate. I wish I had said that!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[teela]

When I go to something labeled belly dance, I am expecting some very traditional. I am not expecting to see someone spouting blood wearing what looks like a male anatomy part dancing to non-middle eastern music. If it is labeled performance art, I'd be fine with the outside the box acts. I really hate going to you-tube to watch something labeled belly dance and see a general dance to something like moody blues with people in Dracula outfits with nothing that is recognizable as belly dance. I think it all boils down to our expected connotations of the term belly dance. I am uncomfortable watching fusion unless it its presented as fusion, not belly dance fusion but straight fusion because fusion indicates you are combining several types of dance.
Just my personal opinion and view

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

When I go to something labeled belly dance, I am expecting some very traditional. I am not expecting to see someone spouting blood wearing what looks like a male anatomy part dancing to non-middle eastern music. If it is labeled performance art, I'd be fine with the outside the box acts. I really hate going to you-tube to watch something labeled belly dance and see a general dance to something like moody blues with people in Dracula outfits with nothing that is recognizable as belly dance. I think it all boils down to our expected connotations of the term belly dance. I am uncomfortable watching fusion unless it its presented as fusion, not belly dance fusion but straight fusion because fusion indicates you are combining several types of dance.
Just my personal opinion and view

Dear Gang,
I feel that Teela's view pretty much sums up what the western idea of belly dance is. I would like to add one more thing. I felt pretty strange with the Pork and Beans thing. I felt like any dancer who knows ANYTHING about Middle Eastern culture and people would know that most of them do not eat pork, whether Christian (I know any Arab Christians who do not), Muslim or Jewish, so in some ways, this felt like a real and deliberate poke at the culture.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Taboo Brad]

Up front let me say that I was one of the judges of the competition generating all this ruckus, but I also have a decade of experience working with many of the top dancers and events. Feel free to regard or disregard my opinion, as you see fit.

First, I'd say that the passionate response within the community to the issue of fusion completely warrants the coverage by Gilded Serpent and other media. The Fusion in this matter is a combination of some aspect of bellydance and some other discipline. All the acts in the contest were instructed to include elements of bellydance and all the judging forms had a line for evaluating its inclusion. Act for act, the amount included may not be your cup of tea, but there's no denying it was a criteria. Judges docked acts that did not include enough elements to be recognized in the fusion. The acts there clearly felt they were doing something valid and the audience seemed to agree. Everyone draws a different line in the sand as to what they appreciate. With some people, Rachel Brice may cross the line; with others its Jill Parker; some may feel Heather Stants goes too far; while still more may not enjoy the work of Ariellah or Amy Sigil (who were both judges as well).

And that's all fine. Feel however you want but beware trying to limit the beliefs or freedoms of others. And beware the chilling effect of trying to stifle a free press that covers those beliefs.

Some of these arguments hinge on the traditional (if not debatable) definition of an institution; an issue that has been in the news frequently of recent, only there it has read:
"When I see something labeled marriage, I am expecting something very traditional. If it is labeled civil union, I'd be fine with outside the box. I think it all boils down to our expected connotations of the term marriage. I am uncomfortable with anything different unless it its presented as something different, not gay marriage."

I would hope artists (whether or not somebody else agrees with that label) would practice more tolerance with one another.

Perhaps I'm wrong...

 

[Aniseteph]

I can understand why many people have issues with "gay marriage" terminology. It's to do with co-opting a word which has strong cultural/religious meanings for many people and making it mean something else.

It does not have to be anything about tolerance.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

Dear Taboo Brad,

Up front let me say that I was one of the judges of the competition generating all this ruckus, but I also have a decade of experience working with many of the top dancers and events. Feel free to regard or disregard my opinion, as you see fit.

First, I'd say that the passionate response within the community to the issue of fusion completely warrants the coverage by Gilded Serpent and other media. The Fusion in this matter is a combination of some aspect of bellydance and some other discipline.

What do you mean by "some aspect of belly dance? In order to BE belly dance, it has to have certain criteria, not one or two of elements that might be part of the whole, but ALL of them, there is no half way.

All the acts in the contest were instructed to include elements of bellydance and all the judging forms had a line for evaluating its inclusion. Act for act, the amount included may not be your cup of tea, but there's no denying it was a criteria. Judges docked acts that did not include enough elements to be recognized in the fusion. The acts there clearly felt they were doing something valid and the audience seemed to agree. Everyone draws a different line in the sand as to what they appreciate. With some people, Rachel Brice may cross the line; with others its Jill Parker; some may feel Heather Stants goes too far; while still more may not enjoy the work of Ariellah or Amy Sigil (who were both judges as well).
And that's all fine. Feel however you want but beware trying to limit the beliefs or freedoms of others. And beware the chilling effect of trying to stifle a free press that covers those beliefs.

No one trying to put limits anyone's freedoms. We are asking for honesty and integrity in dealing with the public and other dancers. Something is not black if it is white and that's not a matter of belief. It is a matter of truth and there is nothing "grey" about it.

Some of these arguments hinge on the traditional (if not debatable) definition of an institution; an issue that has been in the news frequently of recent, only there it has read:
"When I see something labeled marriage, I am expecting something very traditional. If it is labeled civil union, I'd be fine with outside the box. I think it all boils down to our expected connotations of the term marriage. I am uncomfortable with anything different unless it its presented as something different, not gay marriage."

Marriage and dance are not nearly the same thing and that is not a fair or realistic comparison.

I would hope artists (whether or not somebody else agrees with that label) would practice more tolerance with one another.

Perhaps I'm wrong...

In the last 35 years I have seen what destruction has come to the dance in the name of art due to this tolerance we are supposed to practice. I am not buying that until the artists around us are willing to be real with what they are doing and quit calling it "belly dance'. Some of it is really good dance, but it is in no way belly dance and it needs to find its own definition and stop clinging to something that does not define it at all.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Taboo Brad]

I think we understand each other completely, A'isha.

 

[Salome]

Everyone is holding it together really good :dance: Usually when a topic has 51 posts in one day it's already chaotic and angry.

Taboo Brad said something about the differences in drawing a line in the sand. And I was thinking on that this very morning. There are authentic styled dancers shaking their head at American oriental dancers, who shake their head at ATS dancers, who shake their head at Tribal fusion dancers. Hey, now Tribal fusion dancers have a group to shake their head at too :lol:

My earlier question to Cera (thanks for answering) about why do you want to do these experimental fusions is open to anyone else, if there are takers.

 

[Shanazel]

There are authentic styled dancers shaking their head at American oriental dancers, who shake their head at ATS dancers, who shake their head at Tribal fusion dancers. Hey, now Tribal fusion dancers have a group to shake their head at too :lol:

Nothing like a good caste system to keep a society well in hand.

 

[teela]

I like the term experimental fusion as it seems more appropriate. Rather than trying to label it belly dance fusion, call it experimental fusion. That way we know its going to be pushing the edge and will have a wider variety of elements. Thank you for the term Salome.

 

[Phoebedances]

Dear Taboo Brad,



In the last 35 years I have seen what destruction has come to the dance in the name of art due to this tolerance we are supposed to practice. I am not buying that until the artists around us are willing to be real with what they are doing and quit calling it "belly dance'. Some of it is really good dance, but it is in no way belly dance and it needs to find its own definition and stop clinging to something that does not define it at all.

Regards,
A'isha

I completely agree here, and think that Salome's term 'Experimental Fusion' is a really good one.

 

[Maria_Aya]

Can I shake my head??? in the rythme? Dum dum taka tak dum taka tak !!!

BTW very interesting thread!!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

Nothing like a good caste system to keep a society well in hand.

Dear Shanazel,
A caste system speaks of attitudes of superiority and inferiority. No one is talking about that here as long as dancers have the talent they need to do what they are doing. Clear definition, and an assigned role in a caste system are two very different things. I for one, work with dancers from all kinds of different dance backgrounds and I do not consider myself superior to any of the fusion dancers that I work with, nor any of the American style dancers, Tribal dancers etc, as long as they have the skills for their chosen path.

Dear Salome,
I, for one, have a reputation for supposedly shaking my head at all dancers who are not performing authentic ethnic belly dance. I think you know me well enough to know this reputation is not earned. The only thing I shake my head at is false advertising and those who make the dance into a sham. By "sham", I mean those who use sensationalist tricks to get them by because they have no talent.

Dear Brad,
You may or may not understand me. I guess it is easy to make a blunt statement. I have been in this business for 35 years and may understand a lot more than you think.

Dear Teela and Phoebe,
Salome also coined the term "American Oriental", which very aptly describes the American off-shoot. She is good at giving things clear definition.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Salome]

Dear Salome,
I, for one, have a reputation for supposedly shaking my head at all dancers who are not performing authentic ethnic belly dance. I think you know me well enough to know this reputation is not earned.

I know that's not what you're about I can attest to it personally!

 

[Shanazel]

Dear Shanazel,
A caste system speaks of attitudes of superiority and inferiority. No one is talking about that here as long as dancers have the talent they need to do what they are doing. Clear definition, and an assigned role in a caste system are two very different things. I for one, work with dancers from all kinds of different dance backgrounds and I do not consider myself superior to any of the fusion dancers that I work with, nor any of the American style dancers, Tribal dancers etc, as long as they have the skills for their chosen path.

My statement about caste was an exercise in irony in response to Salome's own joke, A'isha, and not to be taken seriously on any level.