The shimmy: knee-driven or hip-driven?

[AyaKara]

Hi everybody! Hope you're all doing well

Over the past few days, I've been practicing my shimmy (mostly hip/ muscle driven) when I decided to view some various Youtube vids. A lot of them emphasized the movement of the knees. I decided to do that & felt that my shimmy could finally hold the 'vibration' that it's supposed to have, compared to my hip-muscle shimmy.

Today in class, I was doing the knee-driven shimmy when my teacher told me to use more of my hips & less of my knees. I trust her because she's been dancing for 15 years (under Oreet, Morocco, etc.) but now I'm confused. I looked online & a website said that both shimmies are acceptable . . . so what exactly is right? What do you ladies & gentlemen do?

 

[gisela]

Everything and nothing is exactly right :lol:

Well, really, both versions are good, if you do them properly, that is. I use my "knees" more, or rather, the muscles that move the knees. My default shimmies don't have much of an up and down in the hips, but I do practice the hip version as I would like to be good at both. (I'm not, though )

When you are in class you should do as the teacher teaches. Just remember there are several versions of every step and movement. Seek them out in your own time or by going to another teacher or ask your own teacher if she would consider including it in her lesson plan.

 

[Jane]

Depends on musicality. I use several different kinds depending on what's happening in the music and the look I feel is appropriate to what I'm hearing and feeling through the music. Shimmy isn't one kind fits all.

Movements are the vocabulary words of dance. The more ways you have to say something, the more eloquent you are.

 

[LaurenRaqs]

I've learned both & use both.

The hip-driven shimmy is more typical of Turkish styling, and therefore very common among American dancers who learned during the period when American dance was largely Turkish influenced (the 60s-90s). So if your teacher is from Morocco's lineage, I'm not surprised that's her default.

The knee-shimmy is the trend in modern Egyptian-style dance. Raqia Hassan did a LOT to spread this particular styling in the 90s. I find it more useful to think of using my thighs rather than my knees... I've seen dancers whose knees move more than their hips do! It's distracting in a narrow skirt, especially...

I find both useful in different ways for layering, and for expressing different types of music. It's like having two different shades of blue crayon in the box instead of one!

But if your teacher favors one particular style, I think it's respectful to limit yourself *in class* to doing it the way she's teaching it. After all, we take from that teacher to learn what SHE teaches. This is why it's so useful to have more than one teacher, though!

 

[Kashmir]

Okay - hips and knees are joints - so they cannot drive anything. Both need to move to move the pelvis - which we also refer to as the "hips" to make things more confusing.

There are at least five ways to drive the movement of the hips for shimmy:

1. Using the lateral flexors (waist muscles) ie quadratus lumborum and the obliques to lift the pelvis up and down
2. Using the legs to bend and straighten the knees - the "knee shimmy"
3. Using the quads to push back the thigh and twist the pelvis back and forward rather than up and down - the "Modern Egyptian shimmy"
4. Using the glutes - Salimpour technique only
5. Using the obliques to twist the hips forward and back - the "folk shimmy"

Personally I use 1 & 3 or a combination of them - depending on the speed and texture of the music and what I am trying to layer. Most students however find 2 to be the easiest to get - but personally I find it limiting and tiring and discourage my students from using it. I never use 4. I occasionally use 5 for travelling sideways or some layering.

Follow your teacher - learn to do the grown up version. You are only starting so don't be discouraged. It takes time. 10 000 repetitions to bed in a new movement pattern - but it has to be 10 000 correct repetitions.

Also be sure you can do a loose, relaxed shimmy. When I see the word "vibration" it puts into mind a tight uncontrolled muscle spasm rather than a "shimmy".

 

[Kashmir]

The knee-shimmy is the trend in modern Egyptian-style dance. Raqia Hassan did a LOT to spread this particular styling in the 90s. I find it more useful to think of using my thighs rather than my knees... I've seen dancers whose knees move more than their hips do! It's distracting in a narrow skirt, especially...

I tend to think of the "knee shimmy" as quite different from Raqia's shimmy. The former drives the hips up and down, the latter back & forward.

 

[Aniseteph]

There are at least five ways to drive the movement of the hips for shimmy:

1. Using the lateral flexors (waist muscles) ie quadratus lumborum and the obliques to lift the pelvis up and down
2. Using the legs to bend and straighten the knees - the "knee shimmy"
3. Using the quads to push back the thigh and twist the pelvis back and forward rather than up and down - the "Modern Egyptian shimmy"
4. Using the glutes - Salimpour technique only
5. Using the obliques to twist the hips forward and back - the "folk shimmy"

Personally I use 1 & 3 or a combination of them - depending on the speed and texture of the music and what I am trying to layer. Most students however find 2 to be the easiest to get - but personally I find it limiting and tiring and discourage my students from using it...

:clap: THANK YOU! <3 . I have always had issues with shimmies and I am starting to think a LOT of it is down to people mentioning knees.

The first time I did it in class I just did it. Maybe not evenly or elegantly or for long, but it was an up and down hip shimmy, and in my brain was not thinking about knees, it was thinking "wobble yer butt". I can even walk with that. Then the breaking it down #2 style starts, mental focus goes to knees, and cue years of struggle to "do it properly". I think I'm only just starting to get over it.

"Move your knees to get your thighs slapping about" does not work for me either. The physics says that when you get to the right speed for your particular er, load and distribution? it's all going to kick off back there, but for me that is slow, not remotely a shimmy speed. Trying to go any faster means putting in a lot of extra energy and strength to fight the natural frequency, and the movement all suddenly disappears. Focusing on flappy thighs = bad (for me).

 

[AyaKara]

Firstly, I'd just like to thank everyone for responding so earnestly. Your posts were ALL so helpful -- I really didn't expect all of the attention that this got. Thank you :lol:

What I'm taking from all of your responses are to practice the 'waist-driven' shimmy primarily, with secondary 'leg-driven' practice, since we use the former in class.

Gisela, LaurenRaqs: I agree! The only time when my instructor teaches us two versions of a technique is when all of the girls in class already know the basic version. When there's a new girl or two (which tends to happen often :lol: ), then we only focus on variations if they can catch on quickly. She stays with me after class for 15-30m to practice other things, so that's when I usually get questions like these in. She also taught us the Raqia shimmy (it's so hard!) but like I said, she only did it one of those days when everyone in the room could understand it.

Kashmir: By vibration, I meant being able to hold the speed of the movement steadily, sorry that I used such a weird word :lol: Thank you for all of your advice & explanations of when to use the individual shimmies! I'm going to save your post for future reference. Don't worry, I won't get discouraged -- that's exactly why I came to the forum with my question so I could improve. :dance:

Also, I do know that the hips & knees are joints -- minoring in Biology -- & that's why i wrote 'hip-muscle' to clarify that I did know the difference, just not the exact terminology :lol: sorry that I used such awkward wording, again! :redface:

Jane: How interesting! I like your language metaphor. I'll keep what you've said in mind throughout my dance lifetime.

 

[Yame]

It depends on your stylistic background and preference and on your physical limitations and preferences.

Personally I prefer to think about my shimmy as being driven by the bending and straightening of the knees as opposed to actively thinking about lifting and dropping the hip.

However, I allow my hips to go up and down as my knees bend and straighten. I am able to do this because I've developed that range of motion on my hips/waist, by doing moves that are driven by the deep muscles of my core rather than driving all my hip movements by pumping my knees. So if I simply relax my body and soften my knees and keep my weight centered around the middle of my feet, the bending and straightening of my knees achieves the up-and-down motion that many people seek to achieve by driving the movement solely from the core. So the shimmy becomes a matter of coordination and range of motion.

So, although the movement is mainly driven by that bending and straightening, the end result doesn't look like the very modern versions of the "knee shimmy" which due to a slightly different posture (more straightened legs, weight more towards the front of the foot instead of the center) achieves an effect that is a little bit side-to-side instead of up-and-down.

And although the movement shows as an up-and-down motion of the hips, it's not mainly driven by my torso muscles as for example my hip drops would be.

So I guess one could say my default shimmy is somewhere between these 2 "types" of shimmies. I can do other types of shimmies too, but the one described in this post is the default.


So, that's that. When you're in class, you should do the shimmy (and any other movement) the way your teacher is teaching, and you should listen to the teacher's corrections. When you are practicing on your own, you are free to practice what you learned in class and/or explore different techniques. This is when we figure out what styles and techniques work best for us, as individuals.

 

[AyaKara]

Thank you very much, Yame. Your descriptions were very in-depth & easy to understand. I appreciate all of your help! I'll continue driving shimmies from my core & do practice less with the knee-pumping variation.

You guys are all so kind :lol: can't wait to see the day when I take on the same teacher role that you all have for me towards other members ray:

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

The question of where shimmies come from and which is "correct" gets asked a LOT. The more I think about this, the more I'm inclined to believe the opinion of many sports and fitness trainers who say that although we CAN focus on just activating one muscle group, in performance or practice, that isolation tends to fade, and we tend to use a combination of muscle groups, depending upon such factors as:

- where our weight is distributed at any given moment
- the alignment of the spine at any given moment
- the movements that occur right before and right after the movement in question
- existing blood flow and stimulation to muscle groups ("warmer" muscles tend to want to take over for less "warmed" muscles.)
- velocity of the movement
- etc.

I will DRILL shimmies originating in various specifically isolated areas, but when it comes to actual dancing, I just go with the moment, depending upon the "feel" (which translates into the "look" that I'm going for. )

 

[AyaKara]

Thank you, Aziyade! I'll keep that in mind. It seems like the best thing to do is to just go with the flow of the music

 

[AndreaSTL]

The first time I did it in class I just did it. Maybe not evenly or elegantly or for long, but it was an up and down hip shimmy, and in my brain was not thinking about knees, it was thinking "wobble yer butt". I can even walk with that.

Same here. My teacher didn't break down how to do it, so I just did it. I didn't contract & release my abs, glutes, or legs. I just shook my butt! I'm not a physiology person, so I can't tell you which muscles I used.

When I learned the leg-driven shimmy I thought of it in terms of standing with a relaxed leg (not super straight but without a deliberate bend/squat). I envision moving my hamstrings to the wall behind me but not so much that I lock the knee. You can also practice this sitting on the floor with your legs straight in front of you if it's easier for you. This is also what we would do at the bus stop on cold winter mornings.

For a slower shimmy I use my legs, but when I need speed I move to the butt wobble D love that term). Like Aniseteph, that's the way I shimmy if I have to walk with an even down/up shimmy.

AyaKara, as you can see there are many ways to shimmy. They produce different looks, so experiment away! You might find you only like one way, or you might like them all for different situations.