To crit or not to crit!

[lizaj]

We are often uncomfortable with the notion we are discussing another dancer's work.

At times we seem to thoroughly enjoy it and

sometimes not in a good way.

So when is it OK to hghlight a Youtube/website and criticise a dancer?

Should you always look for the positive to balance and what if you can't see anything positive?

For myself (but I am open to my mind being changed) if a dancer is a professional of the highest order like Sadie or Randa they are out there and you come home after a live performance and you would discuss it on a forum such as this.

If someone is putting themsleves out as an expert and they clearly aren't, I feel justified in giving my opinion. There is a dancer being "assessed" on tribe who gave an appauling performance at at well known event and claims to have "invented" a new style of belly dance.

If anyone is representing themselves as a professional,as a teacher and getting remunerated and I feel they must offer poor value in terms of intruction or presentation, I feel I can say so.

If they are behaving in a manner that degrades the dance, I would try to counter that.

I wouldn't feel inclined to say anything negative about the dancer who has put up her performance at the local show or hafla , is an amateur and making no grandoise claims.

I think we must recognise that we all have to measure and justify our criticism and know when we stating an opinion and not a FACT!

It is also important to be aware that some people may use this to grind axes.

 

[Kharis]

Something to liven up the threads?

I feel that if a dancer is truly appalling, then it's best to say nothing. Apathy can speak very loudly.

The problem with a free for all on a You Tube critique is that it often gets out of hand and the dancer is also often criticised and pulled apart for nothing more than poor technique and worse dress sense.

By all means post up footage and praise it....give constructive criticism...but there is nothing constructive or positive about poking fun at someone because they simply know no better or are uneducated about the dance. That's like taking the piss out of folks because they can't read or write.

We all had to start somewhere, and we now have vehicles like You Tube which did not exist when a lot of us first started out. But I have a very long memory when it comes to dancing...and people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. We have all, every one of us, danced like crap in the past... particularly when we were baby dancers. Perhaps we should cast our minds back to how hurt we would have felt, if we'd have posted our dancing proudly up there, thinking we were wonderful, and then found ourselves subjected to hoots of derision from more advanced dancers, who quite frankly, should know better.

The only mitigating factor for me... is someone who gets up and does sexually crude or lewd or kinky stuff and attaches it to the dance... not just this dance, but any dance. Their personal sexual pecadilloes belong in the bedroom not on stage and I will say so. There are other inappropriate devices I've seen used in the past and again, I'll speak up against it.


The difference here in this is the intention behind the dancing. If a dancer commits a faux pas through no other reason than ignorance or being misguided or unaware, then perhaps let it go. Why tie her to the self righteous wheel of our knowledge, experience and indignation, and break her on it? What good does this do? You will not educate her or put her right by slagging off her technique and laughing at her homemade bra.

On the other hand, if a dancer deliberately does something with the intention of being skanky, then she is up for criticism. But let the criticism be more constructive then the colour of her lipstick or the gusto with which she shakes her tits.

I think also that we must distinguish between good natured banter, teasing and ribbing, and the nastier, bitchier stuff.

I do agree also that to an extent, a dancer is more prone to being criticised if she is promoting herself as a seasoned professional dancer. It is the public domain, and you're out there. You will get criticism and unkind comments. But I think what bothers me the most is that sometimes we find ourselves laughing at these people and I have to wonder if it's so we feel better about ourselves - that it perhaps gives us a edge over those daring to compete where we hold domain. I dunno. Something feels wrong about it.

I've done my fair share of bitching, but that doesn't mean I wish to perpetuate what I know deep down is bad form. And to this end, I've begun to put myself in the place of those being laughed at.

Making a comment about what dancer/troupe/group does not do it for you, or you feel is dreary or boring is one thing. That's personal choice. The 'Who does she think she is/her hip drops are pathetic' kind of comments just don't sit right with me.

 

[jenc]

I also think it is acceptable to criticise someone who is teaching (and performing) with very little skill. There was an example in an earlier thread on this forum. I don't care if they do say that there are no other teachers available and they know their limitations. If they advertise themselves as a teacher, they clearly are displaying false modesty. Looking at the self-promotion and the clips posted by this particular dancer, despite her protestations, she considered herself to be hot stuff, and was actually getting praise from people who knew no better. I'm not naming names, and not posting a link to the thread, but I was appalled and would criticise anyone similar, just in case it stops one person getting misled.

 

[lizaj]

One problem I have is that so many people cite Youtube as a learning tool but they have no discernment.We had people doing this on a thread here and I do think it is beholden to people to make specific recommendations and maybe even necessary to say NO..do not go there this is not good practise or it is not they style you want or this person is not what they say they are.

But I agree with you whole-heartedly that criticism should never be personal and I believe that we sholud not necessarily hold back from negative criticism but we must be able to justify and explain it.

On the thread I mentioned before people said things like "Go to Youtube" "Lots to see there"; that is no way to advise newcomers to this dance. If you find good solid technique you point it out, direct students to it.

Same as the "Sadie stroke anyone" is wonderful then refuse to say why...dear me we have all written essays at school and know you get minimal marks for a bland staement and better grades when you can explain yourself.

 

[Safran]

When expressing criticism I try to keep on to the two principles:

- Whatever I say, I must be willing to say it in the person's face. Meaning, I don't want to snark and complain behind someone's back, but smile and courtsey when they are in the same room with me... Be it a student, a local dancer or a big star. It is a very difficult principle to follow, I admit. But it always makes me think twice before I decide if and how to express my opinion.

- If it is something I don't like is it because it is really bad or because it is just not my cup of tea. You don't always have to whole-heartedly adore something to accept it.

 

[Kharis]

I also think it is acceptable to criticise someone who is teaching (and performing) with very little skill. There was an example in an earlier thread on this forum. I don't care if they do say that there are no other teachers available and they know their limitations. If they advertise themselves as a teacher, they clearly are displaying false modesty. Looking at the self-promotion and the clips posted by this particular dancer, despite her protestations, she considered herself to be hot stuff, and was actually getting praise from people who knew no better. I'm not naming names, and not posting a link to the thread, but I was appalled and would criticise anyone similar, just in case it stops one person getting misled.

So perhaps we should all post our footage up on YouTube so that all here on OD judge whether or not we are worthy of teaching or performing? I can hold my head up and do that. Who else can? There are lots and lots of folk who should not be teaching. But they do. As we discussed on that thread, how a dancer performs is not always truly indicative of her teaching skills. There are plenty of people out there who cannot dance a step, by my standards, and yet they teach, and with degrees of success. The problem is, that standards of competence vary in the eye of the beholder. What you may rave over, I may find lacking.

When I first started teaching in Southport, there was no one doing it. I'd been dancing a very short time and I started out after only a year of tuition. In retrospect, my technique was still formative and my knowledge still growing. Did that make me a victim of my own false modesty? Were my students being misled? I don't think so. I've now been teaching for 14 years, very successfully, and I've produced several teachers and professional dancers from those classes and workshops. Perhaps if someone with your rather negative attitude had told me I was not fit to teach, I might never have done so, and then all those women who are now enjoying success themselves might never had gotten there.

It is fair comment to offer advice to people starting out in teaching - if they post the footage up themselves.

But to deliberately trawl for someone to pick on, sneer at and demean, is wrong IMHO and only serves to highlight our own insecurities. I've noticed how kind we all are to each other on here, when a fellow OD'er posts footage. But it's safe, isn't it... to choose a random and give vent knowing they are not 'one of us'. Cowardly too, i'd say. And I'm not talking about the odd and bizarre here or the flotsom dancing in their bedrooms - I'm talking about fellow dancers trying to make their way and showing some pride and joy in their achievements... be they inept in our minds or not.

It's not for us to say publicly, 'your not good enough'. We've all gone through that stage ourselves and would do well to remember it. And I don't subscribe to the couching of this negativity under the banner of 'for the higher good of all concerned'.

 

[Suzanne Azhaar]

Agreed, if you wouldn't say it to the person, then it shouldn't be said. I've had great performances and I've had dreadful performances. Instead of denying they exist, chose to learn from the experience and move forward.

About commenting on youtube, every dancer has their own perception of what is 'belly dance' who am I to say they are wrong? (caveat) If it is an an incredibly crass performance then they should be told.

 

[Kharis]

One problem I have is that so many people cite Youtube as a learning tool but they have no discernment.We had people doing this on a thread here and I do think it is beholden to people to make specific recommendations and maybe even necessary to say NO..do not go there this is not good practise or it is not they style you want or this person is not what they say they are.
.

There is a very long discussion at the mo on Bhuz regarding the mental capacity of the GP. And it is fairly safe to say that most people can distinguish between a potato and turnip.... they may appear of a similar shape, but they taste very different but the only way your gonna truly know that is if you take a bite.

I agree, I would not point anyone to a particular You Tube aircrash..who would? But the thing about You Tube is the variety. And as people can compare and contrast on there, it wouldn't take them long to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So let's not treat beginners like complete idiots. If they come on here and we are all saying... 'Hey, this is how it's done,' and 'look at this' ....and then they visit a thread where someone is being pulled apart...well, that's kind of defeating the object. And the proof of this is the more than one sound of newbie feet scuttling away from this forum and the tentative and almost apologetic squeaks they make when dipping their toes in their first posting.

 

[dreamthief666]

We are often uncomfortable with the notion we are discussing another dancer's work.

At times we seem to thoroughly enjoy it and

sometimes not in a good way.

So when is it OK to hghlight a Youtube/website and criticise a dancer?

Should you always look for the positive to balance and what if you can't see anything positive?

For myself (but I am open to my mind being changed) if a dancer is a professional of the highest order like Sadie or Randa they are out there and you come home after a live performance and you would discuss it on a forum such as this.

If someone is putting themsleves out as an expert and they clearly aren't, I feel justified in giving my opinion. There is a dancer being "assessed" on tribe who gave an appauling performance at at well known event and claims to have "invented" a new style of belly dance.

If anyone is representing themselves as a professional,as a teacher and getting remunerated and I feel they must offer poor value in terms of intruction or presentation, I feel I can say so.

If they are behaving in a manner that degrades the dance, I would try to counter that.

I wouldn't feel inclined to say anything negative about the dancer who has put up her performance at the local show or hafla , is an amateur and making no grandoise claims.

I think we must recognise that we all have to measure and justify our criticism and know when we stating an opinion and not a FACT!

It is also important to be aware that some people may use this to grind axes.

having seen the video, words failed me, surely friends should have stepped in before the performance, i would hope my friends would tell me before i put what was a trully awful performance on the stage, i think if you put your self on show anywhere you must accept comments of all types

 

[lizaj]

There is a very long discussion at the mo on Bhuz regarding the mental capacity of the GP. And it is fairly safe to say that most people can distinguish between a potato and turnip.... they may appear of a similar shape, but they taste very different but the only way your gonna truly know that is if you take a bite.

I agree, I would not point anyone to a particular You Tube aircrash..who would? But the thing about You Tube is the variety. And as people can compare and contrast on there, it wouldn't take them long to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So let's not treat beginners like complete idiots. If they come on here and we are all saying... 'Hey, this is how it's done,' and 'look at this' ....and then they visit a thread where someone is being pulled apart...well, that's kind of defeating the object. And the proof of this is the more than one sound of newbie feet scuttling away from this forum and the tentative and almost apologetic squeaks they make when dipping their toes in their first posting.

Just tlling new dancers to "Go and look on Youtube" is dismissive and unhelpful. Agreed I think it would be wrong to say "Oh stay away from such and such" but far better to point to those that do display good technique. Bearing in mind that Youtube and film in gerneral does not always give all the nuances and pleasures of a live performance, we may at times jump to conclusions about dancers whose personalities and subtleties don't translate onto the tiny Youtube screne.
I don't think we should stop criticising..it isn't a free for all out there where anything should go of whatever quality but however we do need to justify why we disapprove or are suspicious of a performance or instruction. I'd always prefer to direct students to performance rather instruction and performance of really great dancers. I think I caught that habit from you,Kharis..."Go forth and watch Fifi et al you always said" and I don't think you can give better advice. There is no need to say "Don't watch Suzy Nippletassles" But if someone says is she a good example would you not say "NO because...."?
Equally if a beginner says "I saw Unmata.Aren't they great belly dancers?" It's not wrong to say NO they aren't a good example of belly dancing and explain why..not because they are not good dancers but etc etc.
My main problem with critique is when people say.."Ooo isn't Jillina/Sadie/Didem marvellous? They are the best" then can't tell you why
Go to "Junie's home Youtube videos..she soooo sexee"

 

[Kharis]

Just tlling new dancers to "Go and look on Youtube" is dismissive and unhelpful. Agreed I think it would be wrong to say "Oh stay away from such and such" but far better to point to those that do display good technique. Bearing in mind that Youtube and film in gerneral does not always give all the nuances and pleasures of a live performance, we may at times jump to conclusions about dancers whose personalities and subtleties don't translate onto the tiny Youtube screne.
I don't think we should stop criticising..it isn't a free for all out there where anything should go of whatever quality but however we do need to justify why we disapprove or are suspicious of a performance or instruction. I'd always prefer to direct students to performance rather instruction and performance of really great dancers. I think I caught that habit from you,Kharis..."Go forth and watch Fifi et al you always said" and I don't think you can give better advice. There is no need to say "Don't watch Suzy Nippletassles" But if someone says is she a good example would you not say "NO because...."?
Equally if a beginner says "I saw Unmata.Aren't they great belly dancers?" It's not wrong to say NO they aren't a good example of belly dancing and explain why..not because they are not good dancers but etc etc.
My main problem with critique is when people say.."Ooo isn't Jillina/Sadie/Didem marvellous? They are the best" then can't tell you why
Go to "Junie's home Youtube videos..she soooo sexee"

Many good points, Liz. I'm not suggesting we never critique... just that it can and does get out of hand and ends up being a hurt fest, as it did recently. I think we have to watch out for that. What we say in private is one thing, what we say in public is another.

I think explaining why you don't like a performance or style is valid. But it's when it becomes an exercise in meanness that I find it distasteful. Questioning someone's lack of technique in an open, eloquent and constructive way is fine. But it's the ..'Look at the state of that!' kind of comment I find unpalatable. There's no need for it.

 

[lizaj]

Many good points, Liz. I'm not suggesting we never critique... just that it can and does get out of hand and ends up being a hurt fest, as it did recently. I think we have to watch out for that. What we say in private is one thing, what we say in public is another.

I think explaining why you don't like a performance or style is valid. But it's when it becomes an exercise in meanness that I find it distasteful. Questioning someone's lack of technique in an open, eloquent and constructive way is fine. But it's the ..'Look at the state of that!' kind of comment I find unpalatable. There's no need for it.

I agree..this is what I mean by justification. Those who cannot are the ones who get personal about appearance or just say "Aw Sadie/Rachel is brill!" Doh!

However sometimes when someone is refusing to heed the advice they have solicited (why ask for it?)blowing their own trumpet,getting nasty themselves,digging their heels in..I understand people's frustrations. We have had the subject of comment get very abusive even when the crticism is balanced and levelled. I once did a critique of an instructional VHS for a journal. I gave a balanced view of what I liked and pointed very politely to were I thought there were problems and got abusive emails for my pains but then I was not alone I was in good company.

 

[Shanazel]

There's always the old adage to fall back on when commenting on performances: Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? As a teacher, I also learned early on to sandwich criticism between two encouraging remarks- it's easier to swallow that way, and the person doesn't feel so much like she's being torn apart by hyenas.

Unfortunately, when people are able to hide behind the anonymity of the internet, some of them use the opportunity to inflict damage and pain just for the hell of it or for the feeling of power it gives them.

Personally, I loathe the whole phone/video thing where anyone can record anything without permission, then spread it on the internet to be endlessly critiqued and dissected. It is one thing to post your own videos; it is another all together for someone to catch the worst performance of your life and present it for the world to see as a typical performance.

 

[Aniseteph]

Making a comment about what dancer/troupe/group does not do it for you, or you feel is dreary or boring is one thing. That's personal choice. The 'Who does she think she is/her hip drops are pathetic' kind of comments just don't sit right with me.

Me neither. I think if a performance is not your cup of tea it can be interesting to discuss why, but not just "ooh look at them they suck".

If someone is presenting herself as a teacher/professional belly dancer and has posted the footage herself (i.e. presumably is happy that it is representative of her work and not an off night) then it is reasonable to comment/discuss.

Random footage posted by other people, dodgy hafla dancing, meh restaurant footage... so what? You don't know the context, it might have been different live, there is so much of it out there that what good is it going to do anyone, and there but for the grace of God goes any of us. Slagging these off does have an unlovely whiff of the making-yourself-feel-better, :naghty:. I bet most of us indulge in it in private or with our belly dance buddy after a particularly WTF? performance, but it's not fair to go public with it, IMO.

Crazy fusions I think are fair enough to discuss - less for whether the dancer is any good than whether it works and what the thinking behind them is.

 

[Kharis]

Crazy fusions I think are fair enough to discuss - less for whether the dancer is any good than whether it works and what the thinking behind them is.

yes and no. the 'I don't get it' thread on Tribe borders on the unpleasant. Surely a simple ....that's not bellydance as we know it, and we don't accept it as such..' could suffice - rather than making fun of her attire and technique. The minute the victim appears on the site to defend herself, they start to back off a little and try to be 'kind.'

I'm all for a having good old one to one blast with a worthy opponent over a difference of opinions or a hot topic...that is what discussion is all about.., but when folks get ganged up on, it's not nice and it's particularly unpleasant when they are so obviously and blatantly lacking in many ways.

And that poor girl is now being exposed yet again on this board to further so called 'discussion' and 'criticism'. :naghty:

It all smacks of kids taking the piss out of the less fortunate or laughing at people with learning disabilities. If you can't say something positive about someone's performance, don't say anything at all.

 

[Kharis]

Random footage posted by other people, dodgy hafla dancing, meh restaurant footage... so what? You don't know the context, it might have been different live, there is so much of it out there that what good is it going to do anyone, and there but for the grace of God goes any of us. Slagging these off does have an unlovely whiff of the making-yourself-feel-better, :naghty:. I bet most of us indulge in it in private or with our belly dance buddy after a particularly WTF? performance, but it's not fair to go public with it, IMO.

Exactly. We don't necessarily know the context.

 

[karena]

This all seems to be in the context of discussing someone's dancing, but costumes also get discussed in much the some way. Is there a reason for the distinction between creativity in dance and creativity in costuming? Personally I don't see it. For me all the same arguments apply, yet this doesn't seem to be reflected.

 

[lizaj]

One way you can discuss is to make you points far more general even when you have been focussing on a particular piece of footage. Take your points from it and take them as an indiction of your greater concerss.
personal comment is sometimes justified and usually it's because of the way the subject has presented themselves.
When an individual is arrogant in response to reasonable comment then they can hardly be surprised when things escalate.

 

[Kharis]

One way you can discuss is to make you points far more general even when you have been focussing on a particular piece of footage. Take your points from it and take them as an indiction of your greater concerss.
personal comment is sometimes justified and usually it's because of the way the subject has presented themselves.
When an individual is arrogant in response to reasonable comment then they can hardly be surprised when things escalate.

Yes. But one thing often concerns me.

Let me give you an example. I have a woman in my class who is nearly blind. She dances every week, performs, etc, despite her disability, and you would never know she was visually impaired until you talked to her face to face. Some years ago I had a passel of new students start my class. They took umbrage to the fact that my visually impaired student always stood at the front of the class (for obvious reasons). Unbeknown to me, they covertly took the piss, insulted her and talked about her behind her back. I only found out when they were finally overheard doing this by another student who told me. Needless to say, I put them right and they were suitably contrite and embarrassed. 'We didn't know!' They bleated. It hopefully taught them an important lesson in circumspection and erring on the side of caution.

 

[Jane]

I have mixed feelings about critiquing other dancers. For me, it depends on the situation.

When I watch a student level dancer at a hafla or a recital, a few things go through my mind. Mainly their potential and what I would love to work with them on if they were my student. Sometimes I get student envy! Everyone here usually wears "full go" costumes at haflahs so I check out the student costumes too. If they are my student or have been in the past, I look at their progress and think about how far they have come. At a student hafla I look for dance with class and good taste. I also look for good body mechanics and musicality. At this level I'm critiquing their teacher more than the student.

Watching hobby dancers dance at public events I begin to have more expectations. They are representing the dance as well as everyone who puts themselves out there as a belly dancer. Often, this is the only live belly dancer a member of the public will see. I look for class, on and off the stage. Honestly, if they don't represent themselves with good taste, I'm pissed. Unfortunately, I often end up pissed. If the dance quality it's self is not so good, I can live with it.

You Tube is such a mess, I usually just watch dancers I know. It's in public, people are going to comment, get over it. If you don't want to be a subject of public discussion, don't put up your videos in public.

Teachers and professionals should be critiqued. If we constantly pat ourselves and each other on the back over every little thing, the quality of belly dance will suffer. We should not have to say things are great when it's not true. It's the way we give our critiques that matter. Give an opinion only when asked. Be tactful. Be honest. Be specific. Be kind. People can take it or leave it. It's only one person's opinion. Most of the time you are wasting your breath. When I dance like crap I know it and so does everyone else. I don't need my hand held and people lying to me to make me feel better about it. I need to figure out why it sucked and how to fix it because it is my job. I learn a lot from failed performances. Critique does not mean I have to let everyone know my opinion. I can keep my assessments to myself. Honestly, I doubt anyone but my students care about my opinion because they are paying me to have one.

The only thing to be gained by mean spirited ripping up of other dancers is a nasty reputation, guilt, and bad karma. I have done it and I am not proud of it when I do.