Typical Turkish?

[Caroline_afifi]

YouTube - Tulay Karaca with live Turkish music,Turkish Belly Dancer

I confess I know diddley squat about turkish dancing and it is not something I watch every often but it is something I feel I can recognise with confidence.

Firstly is this clip what you feel is 'Typical Turkish'?

secondly, if some people feel Egyptian dance is not sexual, do they feel Turkish is?

what are peoples general thoughts about this Turkish dance clip? :think:

 

[Jane]

I have this clip on a video I bought from Eva Cernik. I am not a Turk, but I believe this is typical Turkish Oryantal for it's time period. Damn good zill player. You can really see how much Turkish dance influenced AmCab in the 70-80s.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I have this clip on a video I bought from Eva Cernik. I am not a Turk, but I believe this is typical Turkish Oryantal for it's time period. Damn good zill player. You can really see how much Turkish dance influenced AmCab in the 70-80s.

Thanks Jane for giving your thoughts. I was beginning to wonder why nobody wanted to comment on a Turkish clip. The Egyptian threads seem to go on for weeks..

As far as I am aware it is a 'classic' clip, meaning 'oldish' and very popular.

What is the time period? 70's/early 80's?

I did not notice the zills, I will have to go back and look. Can you actually hear them?

I can see the American style present here.

Is Amcab mostly Turkish influenced or is it a mix?

what are the boundaries which define Amcab or are there non?

 

[Mya]

Caro i've heard some people say that Amcab was largely Turkish influenced and others who say that it depended on the ethnic mix of the diaspora wherever the dancer was. So maybe sometimes it looks more turkish than others?

I hope other people comment on this thread - i also know didley squat about Turkish dance and would like to hear from those who are more familiar with it.

 

[Marya]

Caroline,

I couldn't comment because my internet connection is too slow to watch videos.

I study Turkish Roman, which, in a similar way to Egyptian folkloric sometimes gets used within a Turkish Oriental performance. I don't know very much about Turkish Oriental except what i see on video. I have several videos, but Turkey is a big supplier of the soft porn market for Saudi Arabia (someone told me this and I don't have any reference) so some of the videos are pretty raunchy. Is this typical? I don't know. I think the club scene in Turkey has changed alot and it seems like most of the contemporary videos lack a certain Turkishness?

I had the same reaction to the older Turkish videos that I own: that a lot of American dancers use some of the stylings and movements. But just like Egyptian BD, there is more to it than style and movement.

I am certainly no expert on Turkish Roman or Oriental (or Turkish folk, although I study that too) but there seems to be a Turkish Roman fad among some of the Tribal style dancers on the West Coast of USA. I don't get to see performances of this style where I live (over the mountains from the coast) because as far as I know I am the only one who actually performs it now that Jennet has moved to Turkey.

"Gypsy" is popular here with lots of really cheesy, bad performances but I won't get into that here.

Helene Ericksen in Seattle is the one I learned most of my Turkish Roman technique from.

Marya

 

[Marya]

Caro i've heard some people say that Amcab was largely Turkish influenced and others who say that it depended on the ethnic mix of the diaspora wherever the dancer was. So maybe sometimes it looks more turkish than others?

I hope other people comment on this thread - i also know didley squat about Turkish dance and would like to hear from those who are more familiar with it.

Just like for Egyptian BD, music is all important. I love real Turkish BD music, but I have yet to put together a Turkish Oriental performance piece. I find it difficult to switch from Egyptian to Turkish and so since I have a great Egyptian BD teacher, (Aisha Azar) and no Turkish Oriental teacher I have not been able to progress in this area.

Roughly speaking, comparing Turkish to Egyptian, the movements are larger, more external, there is more use of horizontal space, there are more obvious pelvic movements (drops, thrusts, etc) arms are used more vigorously in turns and spins and in the Roman section. There is nearly always floor work. Costumes tend to be quite bare although this seems to be changing a bit.

Eva Chernik's videos are not professionally edited, and are from the 90's, but they give a good overview of the club scene at that time.

Marya

 

[Aisha Azar]

Turkish dancer

Dear Caroline,
I would say that in some ways she is typical, but not in others. For one thing, she had a little different dance vocabulary, noticeable for what she was lacking as opposed to what she did. For example, she did not do that movement that almost all Turkish dancers seem to use, which is a sort of Basic Egyptian pulled into the center of the body, like a sort of cross between a Hip lift ( I think most people call them) and a lock at the belly button. It was an obvious enough departure from the usual that I wondered if she was Turkish or just dancing in Turkey...???
I would say that early (1960s, 70s) belly dance in the United States was a mishmosh of styles, which is why I do not refer to it as "bellydance". It had no actual ethnic provenance because it was like a very mixed breed dog claiming a pedigree. Dancers took bits and pieces from here and there and added their own western stuff, and referred to it as belly dance. Usually people of a specific ethnic heritage would say, "That's not what is done back home", which I know because I was sitting with them!! In the Northwest we mostly had Greek bands with the occasional Arab drummer or Turkish saz player thrown in for good measure and the music became mish mosh as well.
The Arab bands were the same way. One of the ones I used to work with had two Egyptians, A Palestinian and an Iraqi, each adding their pwn flavor to the music so it got really watered down.
Anyway, from what I can see, she is typical in some ways, but not in others.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Jane]

What is the time period? 70's/early 80's?

Early 80's from what I remember hearing.

I did not notice the zills, I will have to go back and look. Can you actually hear them?

I can hear them on my purchased video. They are really fantastic!

Is Amcab mostly Turkish influenced or is it a mix?

It depends on what part of the US you lived in. Because teachers, videos, and access to the real thing was sparse then, you took what you could get and incorporated it into your dancing- no matter where it originated; authentic or not. AmCab/AmOriental Dancers added in oriental fantasy and somtimes copied other dance genra's (sp?) concepts and movements to fill in the gaps. There just wasn't enough knowledge unless you were lucky enough to have a native teacher. This is all part and parcel of why, along with the mix of Eastern immigrants, AmCab looked, and in some areas still looks, that way. At the time, there was more access to Turkish information in my area (Montana). All the teachers out here who first learned in the early 70s passed on their Turkish based style. As a result, they have spawned some really great zill players around here! Egyptian is coming up to us from the Salt Lake City Utah area and Spokane (Aish'a influence ), and ATS is spreading out here from California. When dancers re-locate and begin to share or hold classes, the style begins to change. I have been watching this with interest. It's very easy to notice because we have a population which grew from around 30,000 to 50,000 in the last ten years. We used to only have one teacher here, Wanda Weston aka Esh of Kashmir or Kashmir, who was my original teacher who began dancing in 1974. Some of her students began their own classes, and some other teachers moved here from other parts of the country. Now we have six American Oriental teachers, five ATS teachers, me, and a guy who used to dance with Jim Boz will shortly begin teaching a male only class. With the exception of the all male class, it's too many for this areas population base.

what are the boundaries which define Amcab or are there non?

Well Caroline...if I had to pin it down with a definition I'll try!

A composit form of belly dance interperted through an American cultural filter, that blends native elements from the Middle and Near East with Orientalist fantasy in its movement, expression and music.

Kind of. Anyone else is free to jump in.

 

[Kashmir]

My knowledge of Turkish is limited to a handful of videos and a couple of workshops, but if you insist. The posture is more upright than what I've seen - which is a lean back which makes the hip roll/lift more obvious and not as much sideways undulation as what I have seen either. Also, she has miles more clothes on than most of what I've seen . Could she be an early Turskish/Arabic fusion dancer?

 

[Salome]

What is the time period? 70's/early 80's?

80's

Firstly is this clip what you feel is 'Typical Turkish'?

yeah, for old school Turkish Oriental. A better example would be Sema Yildez.

secondly, if some people feel Egyptian dance is not sexual, do they feel Turkish is?

I do not see Egyptian style as being prim and proper, so I don't fall into that category of thought. I see both styles as being sensual. Though that element, to my eyes, comes through differently for each. Which I think has a lot to do with Egyptian versus Turkish cultural reference.

I can see the American style present here. Is Amcab mostly Turkish influenced or is it a mix?

It depends on who you ask. If you ask me I’ll tell you that American Oriental is most influenced and patterned after Turkish Oriental. There are other ingredients but to a lesser extent.

What are the boundaries which define Amcab or are there none?

It’s had over 50 years to develop and there are definite boundaries or elements that need to come together. One is the movement vocabulary itself; which are basically the same movement families used in native styles. There are a few foreign occidental movement’s but those are also shared in the native styles. There are *some* movements in American Oriental that you are not going to find in native styles necessarily. Steps from Iranian, Armenian, Greek, Lebanese, Moroccan, Tunisian… folk dances. Because of our American cultural views of what qualifies as ‘beauty in movement’ we have a tendency toward refinement, focusing on preciseness, and slickness. It’s usually not messy or raw, or relaxed.

The expression of the vocabulary is, in large part, patterned after the Turkish style. The techniques used to produce movement is more often Turkish, where a lot of movement is driven more ‘skeletally’ rather than more muscularly. This lends itself to defining space (certainly on but also) around the body in a bold and dynamic way. Like you saw Tulay do in the clip. Also what movement, where we use it on the body and how it’s applied to the music is similar to the Turkish style. It’s also busy (in a good way). There is not down time (we do stretch the music out) but I mean, you don’t walk to one side of the stage and do a movement, then walk to the other and do a movement. It’s more energetic, and the music is filled with action with travel and lot’s of level changes. Especially dramatic drops. The other aspect is that it is a style that has strong symmetry and balance. You’ll notice that American Oriental dancers are very ‘even’ in this regard.

Music is some Lebanese and Egyptian (mostly older, popular arrangements like ah nadda and zeina) and (most often) Turkish as well as its own style of music, we call 'Amerabic'. It tends toward a very organic preference with prevalent instruments being saz, or oud, kanoun, violin, clarinet, ney, and tabla. American Oriental has a specific performance structure. The music we use is not typically episodic like Egyptian arrangements can be. There is a clear beginning, a clear end and inside each it’s one ‘flavor‘. We have an extensive a range as Egyptian style it’s just laid out in a different way. The first segment is an uptempo song. Zills are a must. To be a good American Oriental dancer you have to play cymbals well. The second section is slow and the dancer uses veil. The third is a (slow or medium) chifti, where the dancer does balancing props, floorwork or both. The fourth is a short song that builds in tempo out of the chifit. The fifth is the drum solo, the sixth (and this is really being lost!) is a high tempo, sometimes manic paced 9/8, then the finale which is a reprieve of the first song. Barring time constraints… this is how it is done.

The purpose of the dancer is really no different than in native styles, bringing the music to life emotionally and physically. As far as the attitude… if it’s a good dancer, it’s not fakery - there is real substance there but it’s also approached with a sense of the dramatic and theatric. It’s not the relaxed, informal Egyptian attitude.


There is a specific kind of costuming, basically what you see the old school Turks wearing, we wore and what they are wearing now, we wear. Though that’s not hard and fast, there is some Egyptian costuming used.

I don’t know that I can adequately define it in four paragraphs but in a nutshell…

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Thanks everyone.

My head is spinning now with various questions and thoughts.

where to start..:think:

Is the Turkish dance scene similar in 'culture' to that of Egyptian?

How does an Amcab dancer know when she is doing Amcab or Turkish?

The sexual expression of Turkish seems different to me. More bold I think?

I the costume in the clip was almost like a Bikini and it was something I noticed in general. There was also less emphasis on the cleavage and more on the legs?

The other clips I viewed, one of the things I noticed the most was the dancers were definately slimmer than Egyptian.

Infact I could not find a clip of a more rounded Turkish (named dancer from Turkey)

Dare I say it... what about male Turkish belly dancers? there seems to be quite a few.

Ozgen is a lovely chap and he actually performs a range of styles.

He can be quite sexual too with his little tops and oiled well toned body..:shok:

I suppose this is best questioned on the male thread.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Danc etc.

Dear Caroline,

Thanks everyone.

My head is spinning now with various questions and thoughts.
where to start..:think:
Is the Turkish dance scene similar in 'culture' to that of Egyptian?

This is not something I can respond to from personal experience, but I am sure there are people here who know more about the Turkish scene than I
From what I have heard, the Turkish club scene has always been pretty openly sexually dynamic, shall we say??

How does an Amcab dancer know when she is doing Amcab or Turkish?

Well, you see, in the Northwest, from what I can tell, I have a different opinion than Salome and would say the dancers in the 1970s and 80s were performing something more based on Lebanese dance, without the more subtle complexities of Turkish dance, which when done very well is very intricate from what I have seen. The Lebanese style relies much less on layering of movement, while you see a lot of that in good Turkish, just not the same as Egyptian. As I said, there are some things that made me wonder if this girl was a native Turkish dancer, because she left out some important elements that one usually finds in Turkish Oriental. there is even a Turkish name for one of the most common movements that she left out.... I just can not remember what it is.

The sexual expression of Turkish seems different to me. More bold I think?

But then, on many levels, so is the physical dance style more bold, bigger, more outwardly focused than Egyptian.

I the costume in the clip was almost like a Bikini and it was something I noticed in general. There was also less emphasis on the cleavage and more on the legs?

But, does it not look very much like what the Egyptians were wearing before the late 1970s?? It certainly brings back memories of Suheir Zaki and her fleshy thighs, Hanan and her curvy hip line, Nagwa Fpuad, Fifi, etc, back when fringe was very short.

The other clips I viewed, one of the things I noticed the most was the dancers were definately slimmer than Egyptian.

But think back to when the Egyptian dancers were young. Except for perhaps Suheir, Nelli and Heyertum, the girls were slender.

In fact I could not find a clip of a more rounded Turkish (named dancer from Turkey)

Dare I say it... what about male Turkish belly dancers? there seems to be quite a few.

About 12-15 years ago they were a rarity and made the news when they first started coming out, as it were. I have several newspaper clips from then.
Ozgen is a lovely chap and he actually performs a range of styles.

He can be quite sexual too with his little tops and oiled well toned body..:shok:

I suppose this is best questioned on the male thread.

We also have to remember that Turkey has been subjected to a lot more western influence than Egypt, in a more intense way, for much longer, so that may be part of it.... then again, it may not... who knows??

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Dear Caroline,
This is not something I can respond to from personal experience, but I am sure there are people here who know more about the Turkish scene than I
From what I have heard, the Turkish club scene has always been pretty openly sexually dynamic, shall we say??

This is impression I got but I only visited Istanbul once.

Well, you see, in the Northwest, from what I can tell, I have a different opinion than Salome and would say the dancers in the 1970s and 80s were performing something more based on Lebanese dance, without the more subtle complexities of Turkish dance, which when done very well is very intricate from what I have seen. The Lebanese style relies much less on layering of movement, while you see a lot of that in good Turkish, just not the same as Egyptian. As I said, there are some things that made me wonder if this girl was a native Turkish dancer, because she left out some important elements that one usually finds in Turkish Oriental. there is even a Turkish name for one of the most common movements that she left out.... I just can not remember what it is.

So Amcab can vary from State to State?

But then, on many levels, so is the physical dance style more bold, bigger, more outwardly focused than Egyptian

Yes, but I think the expression of sensuality/sexuality is more upfront?
It appears that way to me.


We also have to remember that Turkey has been subjected to a lot more western influence than Egypt, in a more intense way, for much longer, so that may be part of it.... then again, it may not... who knows??

But, does it not look very much like what the Egyptians were wearing before the late 1970s?? It certainly brings back memories of Suheir Zaki and her fleshy thighs, Hanan and her curvy hip line, Nagwa Fpuad, Fifi, etc, back when fringe was very short.

It certainly does except the egyptian version had a body net and a slighty bigger built bra. This clip certainly made the costume more Bikini like than Egyptian versions of the same.

Slim Egyptians and Slim Turks are like saying Slim Russians and Slim Americans.. It is subjective. The Turkish dancers seem very slim compared to
the Egyptians. Perhaps it is just the selection I saw.

We also have to remember that Turkey has been subjected to a lot more western influence than Egypt, in a more intense way, for much longer, so that may be part of it.... then again, it may not... who knows??

Regards,
A'isha

Possible but I am interested in how Turkish Belly dance sits within the family culture.

Are there sweethearts of dance like in Egypt?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Turkish etc.

Possible but I am interested in how Turkish Belly dance sits within the family culture.

Are there sweethearts of dance like in Egypt?

Dear Caroline,

I guess most of rhe quotes did not make it to this post, so I will try to respond to everything.

Re AmCAb being different from State to State. American Oriental can vary from this side of rhe state to that!! I am from eastern Washington and our dancing looked very different from what was going on in Seattle in Western Washington about 300 miles away. We had less Jamila Salimpour influence and more Jodette Silhi influence here, so we wore more beads and less coins, and generally were more into the glam Egyptian thing than the folkish, Americanized thing, for example. In Portland, Oregon, another close belly dance hub, yet another look and feeling was going on under the influence of Badawia, who did a bit of both, but hung out with Jamila. there was also a perian dancer down there who had a lot of influence on that club scene. If we look at San Francisco and Lo Angeles we see that same difference. When I started dancing, Diane Weber was big in L.A. and she was more into an authentic style than was Jamila in the north. I think it is still that way, though right now there seems to be be much more of the mish-mosh thing than ever because of all the "fusion" stuff going on. But even that has a distinct regional style. Kammie Liddle seems to be a big influence in tribal around here. I teach Egyptian and have a big influence in the way the region is doing that style, and there is still very little Turkish or Lebanese dance. Lebanese style seemed to be the big influence in both Seattle and Portland when I was a young dancer.

Re the Turkish style dance being more sexually up front: I think that depends on the dancer partly, but I think the movements could certainly be seen as more aggressive on most dancers of that style. I think Mouna is certainly as sexually up front as anyone, but she appears more demure than the Turks because she does not take up as much physical space. Dina the same.

Re the familial thing: I am not sure about this at all. I have very few interactions with Turks, but someone here must have some idea.
Regards,
A'isha