Gothic Belly dance

[Michelle]

I'd like to state for the record that when I made my comments earlier in this thread, I was specifically referring to Jehan's music video on the Gothic Bellydance DVD. I found it to be lacking, not only in belly dance but in artistry. However, I am not familiar with her body of work so I cannot expand my comments to her dancing in general nor can I say the same of Gothic belly dance in general. I am not a bigot like that.
First and foremost, I am an artist so I can understand the need for self-expression in your art. And I certainly am not discrediting anyone for feeling the need to do so. That is what makes art what it is; it is interpreting life through an individual's eyes. That being said, as an artist, I have respect for my medium, be it dance or music or anything else. I have no problems with people being inspired by belly dance and wanting to incorporate it within their performance. Hey, creativity is a good thing; more power to you. I do have problems when people do not make it clear that it is not belly dance in its truest form. I don't want to get into a labeling war today. Oriental dance has origins, history, and cultural meaning and it is not respectful to just wipe that all away and change its meanings for our convenience or an artistic whim. I am assuming that Gothic belly dance changes the feeling of belly dance to incorporate Goth subculture and attitude. In this sense, it ceases to carry the real meaning, the intent of belly dance.

 

[phoenixavathar]

Truest form?

"I do have problems when people do not make it clear that it is not belly dance in its truest form."

Do any of us TRULY know what bellydance was in its "truest form"? I mean...seriously...does anyone really think that when bellydance first began, dancers were going around wearing low-cut costumes of beads and sequins and high heels, midriffs showing? So is this really its truest form? It seems to me that what many of us know as the look of traditional bellydance is simply bellydance inspired by Hollywood.

As for not making it clear that gothic bellydance isn't traditional bellydance...I guess this would be a problem if any of us advertised ourselves as "Traditional bellydance performers" and then danced in a more gothic inspired way. But as far as I know...many of us just say "gothic bellydance..." or in my case "gothic fusion".

So ... what makes the movements of gothic bellydance not "bellydance in its truest form"? Sure, the music is different...the costuming tends to be different (though not all the time...sometimes its very cabaret style)...but since I've taken my 7 years of traditional bellydance training and applied it to this alternative form, it seems pretty true to me...feels like bellydance...looks like bellydance...

 

[Michelle]

Damn! I lost my post and had to rewrite it!

Do any of us TRULY know what bellydance was in its "truest form"? I mean...seriously...does anyone really think that when bellydance first began, dancers were going around wearing low-cut costumes of beads and sequins and high heels, midriffs showing?

I agree; many women perform American Cabaret, which is not really authentic and have the misconception that Hollywood's old movies with the navel ring and such to be the real bellydance. But anyone who has studied its origins even a little knows that to be a falsehood. But I am sure I am just repeating things you've heard before.

or in my case "gothic fusion".

Perfect. No argument here.

So ... what makes the movements of gothic bellydance not "bellydance in its truest form"? Sure, the music is different...the costuming tends to be different (though not all the time...sometimes its very cabaret style)...but since I've taken my 7 years of traditional bellydance training and applied it to this alternative form, it seems pretty true to me...feels like bellydance...looks like bellydance...

Well, for one thing, I think we tend to forget how important the music is to the dance. Arabic music is rich with layers and intricate instrumentation, not to mention symbolic meaning for its audience. It invokes the subtle movements and the emotional depth that we admire in Egyptian dancers. And because bellydance is part of a culture, rather than a school of thought like ballet, its defined by it's meaning to the society in which it originated (although the Middle East does not hold it in the highest regard nowdays due to the rise of fundamentalism). Without the music's feeling and interpretation, the very attitude is lost. Movements alone do not make bellydance. So although the movements are the same, the intention is not. It may look like it's bellydance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is bellydance.

 

[Erina]

here are a few Gothic, Tribal and Fusion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JGdshgcUZk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY83aFzK3x8&search=tribal fusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3oUbpp8djk

So far I have only looked at the first video, by the band she is dancing to, RAmstein are like Industrial Rock, and I used to listen to some of their stuff.

I improvise to my rock music too, like if anyone has heard of, System of a Down, because, like Ramsein have a hard beat that is nice to dance to.

I'm not too sure what Gothic Belly dance is exactly but it looks like just dressing up in black, and calling yourself a goth But in the case of that first video, that didn't look very gothic to me other than the music playing was rock (NOT gothic music)

 

[Desideria]

Desideria (love your website, by the way!), I can't say for sure, but I think that A'isha is speaking of the cultural background of bellydance and is not saying that gothic style is a lesser art form, just a different one.

A'isha- I hope it doesn't bother you that I came in and said this. I don't mean to speak for you, but just state what I think was meant. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry (and I'll stay out of it next time! ).

Ah there is no truth in what she said except what is in black and white. She meant just what she said .Its right there. But that is just her biased opinion. To each there own. every person has their own views, thoughts and ways in this life.

Lets just except that we all percieve our art form in different ways.

 

[samira shuruk]

Ah there is no truth except what is in black and white. She meant just what she said its right there. But that is just her biased opinion. To each there own. e very person has their own views, thoughts and ways in this life.

Lets just except that we are all different.

There are dance artists in all forms of belly dance who started out learning Egyptian and/or Arabic style- working for YEARS in the style before branching out and performing other styles (ATS, tribal fusion, gothic etc). Based on their own years of experience and research they call what they do "belly dance".

Merely expressing the opinion "*that's* not belly dance. They shouldn't call it belly dance. It's a different kind of dance." is also implying "those people don't know what they're talking about. Their experience/research means nothing. They don't belong on these boards/forum".

 

[Desideria]

There are dance artists in all forms of belly dance who started out learning Egyptian and/or Arabic style- working for YEARS in the style before branching out and performing other styles (ATS, tribal fusion, gothic etc). Based on their own years of experience and research they call what they do "belly dance".

Merely expressing the opinion "*that's* not belly dance. They shouldn't call it belly dance. It's a different kind of dance." is also implying "those people don't know what they're talking about. Their experience/research means nothing. They don't belong on these boards/forum".

Here Here Samira thank you!! Yes I am one of the So called : ' Its not belly dance because I dance to Gothic ( dancers)" Ok well I studied,Read, trained, practied,Performed , breathed, ate dance since 3. Researched the heck out of my many forms ( still am) I am a Belly dancer who incorporates different , styles, looks, music in each performance and/or gig, venue . Depending on the theme, gig or the mood I am in for that particular place and/or gig.


After reading smug remarks, condesending comments, catty insults .I say that the ME dance community are very competitive and so not sister like. But yet the Gothic dance community( or so I think) seem to be more embracing to one another. ( but yet we are called moody, angery people)by those who donot understand our music, culture.

It is why I do my own thing, book my own gigs and do events, fairs, festivals, venues that welcome me, my style and give me the admiration, respect I deserve after training in dance for over 40 years.

I think we need to close this subject and just accept that Art comes in many ways and people percieve it as they wish

Thank you
Samira
Phoenix
Zan Asha
Tribal dancer
and anyone else who stood up for us in here.
If its smells like chicken
looks like chicken it is chicken lols!!!

By the way I would like to host a "Gothic" Theme "Belly dance "night in CT this fall or early spring Contact me!!!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth etc.

Desideria (love your website, by the way!), I can't say for sure, but I think that A'isha is speaking of the cultural background of bellydance and is not saying that gothic style is a lesser art form, just a different one.

A'isha- I hope it doesn't bother you that I came in and said this. I don't mean to speak for you, but just state what I think was meant. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry (and I'll stay out of it next time! ).

Dear Mair,
That is exactly what I meant, and thanks for paying attention instead of jumping to conclusions. There is much more about this on the culture thread in "Other Stuff"
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Desideria]

Dear Mair,
That is exactly what I meant, and thanks for paying attention instead of jumping to conclusions. There is much more about this on the culture thread in "Other Stuff"
Regards,
A'isha

Well if that is what you meant. That is what you should have said. What I see written is what it is. Do not contradict yourself to others. You very well said that "Gothic Belly dance" is not Belly dance. It is if the song has ME instruments, sounds and feeling and if I am wearing a ME costume and dancing ME. CASE CLOSED!!!

Apparently nothing! is ME dance unless it is what you dance. And who is anyone to say what is truly traditional unless you lived back in those days. All we have is what we learn and research.Get your facts straight!

This is 2006 the face of Belly dance is changing with more styles, looks and themes its all Theatrics its all ART. We are all women and are Goddesses, sensual and move like snakes here here!!!! No matter what song we dance too. If it has a drum beat we shimmy!!!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth

Dear Desideria,
I did say it, you simply chose to see an insult. I stated clearly that it might be good as art but that it is not belly dance. I stand by that . Words like "Case closed" make you sound even more narrow minded than you are accusing me of being. You say I don't have that right but seem to reserve it for yourself.
You have been dancing for so many years and done so many different kinds of dance, surely you understand about dance as essence as opposed to just dance as movement.
Middle Eastern dance is dance FROM THE MIDDLE EAST. There are many Middle Eastern styles that I do not perform, but still recognize as being Middle Eastern dance. You spend a lot of energy trying to make it look like I am saying something that I am not. There are dances that I am just learning and still recognize as Middle Eastern. My facts are straight and if you can't use a civil tone of voice and quite being so damned abusive without provocation then I will not respond after this and you can have a heyday running me into the ground with false accusations and surmises.

Even theatrics have their very cultural specifications. Chinese Opera is not Greek Tragedy, or Film Noire. Each art form is identified by certain things that go beyond movement, even art on canvas. Belly dance is indeed an ethnic art form and the face of belly dance is changing in its native environments in ways that it would naturally change, with cultural infleunce as the denominator for what the dance is and is not. What is happening as far as change outside that environment is that the essence of the dance becomes unrecognizeable and becomes a new art form separate from belly dance.

Look, I would really appreciate it if all of you who think I don't know what I am talking about would at least stick to issues instead of constantly bringing up my horrible personality. Eventually I am bound to get nasty myself and I really try hard not to do that. Why don't you try to prove to your points, in some rational and intelligent way that, your dance IS belly dance instead of going off on these weird tangents about what a jerk I am?
A'isha Azar

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I've basically given up trying to salvage the phrase "belly dance" as meaning the cultural dance -- but I draw the intellectual line when Gothic or fantasy forms are referred to as "Middle Eastern" or "Raqs Sharqi" -- because they're not.

I'm INVOLVED in doing fantasy fusion (Tolkien Society "research" on indigenous Hobbit dance) so I'm certainly not knocking anyone's creativity -- but I would never presume to call what we're doing "Middle Eastern."

Middle Earthern, maybe. But not culturally Arabic.

 

[Jeffrey]

Let's be fair here

The "Middle Eastern Bellydance" that we all know and love may have gained it's influence from some of the folkloric dances that were common in the Middle-East but they have all evolved into something quite different in the last couple of centuries and has now become an international type of dance.
I am also a jazz musician and have been so for many years. I am white. I play music with people of many different ethnicities. There are some folks that automatically assume that if you are white, you can't play jazz or the blues. I'm never going to change those people's opinions because what jazz is has changed so radically and has evolved so much in the last century. The style of jazz that I play comes from the late era of BeBop and Hard Bop, and there have been many many evolutions since then. "Jazz Purists" don't like or cobsider "Jazz Fusion" to be jazz. That's okay, they are entitled to their opinions, I don't play jazz fusion anyway but I'll be damned if I'm going to try to make decisions for others.
Incidentally, quite a few of the dancers that perform with Belly Dance Superstars consider themselves to also be "Gothic Bellydancers". People like Rachel Brice have incredible technique that I'm certain that many here envy. Many of her moves are not "traditional" Middle-Eastern moves. Many of the instruments that we play are also not "traditional" Middle-Eastern instruments. Certainly MOST of the costumes worn by almost ALL bellydancers here in the US would be frowned upon in a typical Middle-Eastern audience.
Art evolves. It finds new paths. Bellydancing will and should continue to evolve if it is a viable artform (and I certainly think that it is). Not all of the evolutions will or should be pleasing to all, but they are going to happen.
My parents didn't think that Rock and Roll would last (oh, I'm old BTW), and I never thought that Hip Hop and Rap would last (I've had to eat those words).
The world is a pretty big pool and there's room for all of us to swim.

 

[Gabi]

Damn! I lost my post and had to rewrite it!



I agree; many women perform American Cabaret, which is not really authentic and have the misconception that Hollywood's old movies with the navel ring and such to be the real bellydance. But anyone who has studied its origins even a little knows that to be a falsehood. But I am sure I am just repeating things you've heard before.


Perfect. No argument here.



Well, for one thing, I think we tend to forget how important the music is to the dance. Arabic music is rich with layers and intricate instrumentation, not to mention symbolic meaning for its audience. It invokes the subtle movements and the emotional depth that we admire in Egyptian dancers. And because bellydance is part of a culture, rather than a school of thought like ballet, its defined by it's meaning to the society in which it originated (although the Middle East does not hold it in the highest regard nowdays due to the rise of fundamentalism). Without the music's feeling and interpretation, the very attitude is lost. Movements alone do not make bellydance. So although the movements are the same, the intention is not. It may look like it's bellydance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is bellydance.

I hate it when that happens

Yes, OK - on your comment that "there are many women who perform American Cabaret"; so is it so bad if they call it American Cabaret Belly Dance, or if they say they teach Belly Dance American Cabaret Style?

On to you last about the music..... here's what get's interesting though when you follow that school of thought.... which Middle Eastern Music is OK - and is their any non Middle Eastern but Middle Eastern Influenced music that is OK.

I notice that a lot of the more modern Middle Eastern Music is a FUSION of American and middle eastern and a lot of other things - there is for example often a heavy Afro Carribean feel to it. I'm guessing that modern Middle Eastern musician feel they want to experiment too. So if a dancer dances Belly Dance moves to that music is it still not Belly Dance to you?

We do not agree on what is Belly Dance but I do appreciate that you have a tone that doesn't make me feel like you are telling me I'm not only wrong but somehow lacking in integrity.

 

[Gabi]

..........Why don't you try to prove to your points, in some rational and intelligent way that, your dance IS belly dance instead of going off on these weird tangents about what a jerk I am?
A'isha Azar

I've seen you use this phrasing over and over since the line of discussion began and it is a perfect example of why I, personally, feel hostility.

By say "why don't you try ....." you are also saying that I/we are not being rational or intelligent. By making the statement "going off on weird tangents ..." you are most certainly being very clear in your perception and it is insulting IMO - that means IN MY OPINION if you didn't know.

You are so busy saying YOU are being attacked but you can't seem to see why some of the rest of us may feel attacked; how about YOU try a little harder to see our perspective.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth, etc.

Dear Jeffrey,
We seem to have a difference of opinion in that I do not see the dance as international ,but definately being the child of several specific cultures. I do not think it originated among the performers who might have influenced by outsiders but instead among the people and became an entertaiment for the wealthy and their foreigner supporters at a later date. I think the dance has very much has retained that cultural essence. And dance is about that essence as much as it is about anything. Belly dance did not originate in every country and I do not see it as international, but instead directly influenced by specific cultures, just as Scottish Highland, Hula, etc have been. ( We know what happened to those dances from the South Pacific that people decided to claim as their own or destroy without giving thought to the cultures of those dances.) I do see innovations as having more of infusion from other places than belly dance itself, and that is why I think they need to be more clearly defined. I see the value of good dance innovation, and actually find some fusion ( including that of Rachel Brice) to be wonderful. In fact I stated here on this forum someplace before that I thought her dance was the very best one in the Superstars show. But I do wish for clarity, both for the sake of the dances
and as resepct for the cultures who's dances we are borrowing.

I had an ongoing debate here with Miles Copeland for some time as to whether or not the BDSS are actually performing belly dance, which for the most part, I think they are not. In fact when I saw them live, I saw no essence of the dance at all, but instead it seemed to be quite formualic, but that is a different debate (I hope...)
As for costuming, much of the time I dance for Middle Eastern audiences and they actually seem to like the costumes to be sort of sexy. Right now in the Middle East, costumes are pretty brief with more cleavage and more leg than has been shown for a long time. Even at parties, except for the older crowd, the women seem to go in for short, tight dresses!
I agree that there is room for all of us to swim, but whether we are in the Atlantic or the Pacific or the Red Sea makes a difference in a biig way. Also there is a huge difference between a mailot and a thong. ( I am a Pisces: we LOVE water allusions!!)
Regards,
A'isha

Dear Gabi,
I am sorry to have to point it out, but going on about how I am narrow minded, threatened, hostile, etc is not a rational, intelleigent argument, and that is what I have been getting from you and some others for some time. When I specifically asked you about dance, you never did give me any answer, but instead pointed out more of my endless shortcomings.
What Jeffrey did is a rational argument, he did not involve me personally, just pointed out our differences. In answering him, I also did not point out anything about his personality. Though you do not know this about me,I HAVE spent LOTS of time looking at it from your persepecitive. I have studied what I used to think of as "American belly dance" sword dance, and other in innovations. My attitude was pretty much live and let live. As I got more involved in authentic dance, I began to see how far from the visceral reality of the dance these innovations often are, and I began to wonder at what point it becomes some new form of dance. In the last 15 or so years, I have begun to see that people call anything they want "belly dance", and that is when I began to see things in a different light.
I have not always been as radical as I am now, but the times and the things that have been done in the name of belly dance seem to demand that this issue gets some attention. If you see that as me being a know it all or whatever, I can't help it.
A'isha

 

[Gabi]

..........Dear Gabi,
I am sorry to have to point it out, but gong on and on about how I am narrow minded, threatened, etc, is not a rational or intelligent argument.

LOL - I give up. I was attempting to be helpful, apparently you are not open to it and you are not hearing what I am ATTEMPTING to say to you, which I admit may be my fault for not expressing myself well enough for you.

 

[Aniseteph]

Art evolves. It finds new paths. Bellydancing will and should continue to evolve if it is a viable artform (and I certainly think that it is). Not all of the evolutions will or should be pleasing to all, but they are going to happen.... The world is a pretty big pool and there's room for all of us to swim.

Hear hear. Live and let live, swim and let swim. (apologies to Cole Porter). I'm so depressed at getting the impression that this is a particular pool I'm not worthy to dip my painted toes in, let alone swim in. And thumbs up to Goth sisterhood too
A xxx

 

[Jeffrey]

Respectfully submitted

I am not trying to continue an ill fated argument with you A'isha, but even the very term: "bellydance" is an American creation. It may have been influenced by the term that the French used for it "the dance of the stomach", but this very fine artform that we all love was influenced by traditional Middle-Eastern folkloric dance, enhanced by Western European and American promoters and eventually made its way back to the Middle East. That makes it international.
I will agree with you if you say that what is performed as "bellydance" is not traditional Middle-Eastern dance. From a purist's point of view, that is correct. But, since the first time that the term "bellydance" was used to describe "Dans Orientale" or "Raqs Sharki" was by a late 19th century American entertainment promoter, I think that it is safe to say that using those guidelines, what the Belly Dance Superstars are doing is most definitely Bellydance. They may not be doing a "Shikaad", but they are definitely doing Belly Dance.
BTW, We also perform for a lot of very traditional Middle Eastern functions where the women dance the folkloric dances (here in NY it's a lot of Syrian, Turkish and Lebanese). But they are usually very much covered. I had the opportunity to do a function last year with an Iranian tar player (I played darbukah instead of tonbak) and the women that danced were Iranian women living in NY and they dressed very modestly. The dancing was quite different than what I'm used to seeing in the clubs.
We played a gig with a Greek orchestra at a college (they needed drummers) a few months back and there were dancers. I found that there was a similarity to the structure of the traditional Greek dances and the traditional Iranian dances. A lot of moving together in unison, grapevine steps, some with interlocking arms or fingertips touching and some serpentine movements across the floor. I can recognize a few arm movements that I have seen bellydancers do, but other than that there wasn't much similarity
But then I guess I'm just use to playing for "bellydancers".

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth, etc.

Dear Jeffrey,
What about the BDSS makes you believe that that they are belly dancers? What about Goth innovation makes you see it as bellydance? What elements do you see as being necessary for you to view a certain dance as belly dance?

"Belly Dance" is seen by the American public to be a dance from countries of the Middle East. They may have an orientalist or romantic idea of what that means, but to them it still means something from a mysterious country far away. They do equate it with the Middle East, Sol Bloom's version or whoever's, but the root connotation is still there. If I ask even Arabs the meaning of Belly dance, they specifically say "Raqs Sharghi". Belly dance is the how it translates to English, though the translation might not be literal.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Michelle]

Me? I'm feeling a bit whimsical this morning so if I end up making a joke, rest assured it is not directed towards anybody or at anyone's expense.
Gabi,
Your comment on ME music has plenty of merit. You're right; Middle Eastern music has changed from what it was 40 years ago. But despite the fusion and the adding of a more pop sound, to me, it still retains a distinctly Middle Eastern flavor that no other region's music has. If I hear a more modern song and I don't happen to know it, I most likely will not confuse it with anything by Celia Cruz (afro-Caribbean referrence). But maybe I'm cheating cuz I'm Cuban (again, afro-caribbean referrence)....

Everybody,
Please let's not talk about the BDSS. Wow, is that an argument that never dies! Anyhow, we don't want to attract the attention of You-Know-Who (nothing personal, friend, but you never quit!) again because then it will go on forever and ever.....

Folks,
Actually, I kind of think that it is a credit to a dance form when it has evolved so much from its original form into something unique and different. I'm sure there is somebody else out there who could make an argument for Tribal being something apart from bellydance specifically because it has created a unique language of movement (that although is similar to bellydance, incorporates many more diverse sources), has its own essence and mentality, has its own different categories of fusions and schools of thought, and has a widely popular following. Kind of like modern dance evolved from jazz and other forms (I believe; I'm not sure about that so please correct me if I'm wrong..... Rick, I know you know). I personally think that this is a compliment more than an insult. But that's just my perspective.

Just a thought,
I find it terribly interesting how so many people came out of the woodwork to support their art. Say what you will about Goth style; it has a hell of a following.

Closing Arguments,
It's clear that we will never all see eye to eye. My only statement is to always respect your artform, whatever it may be. This is just my advice. Because what is art but the view of the world through the eyes of an individual? Whether or not you are highly trained in bellydance or not is not the issue. I never sought to discredit you nor say that you didn't know what you were talking about. I merely stated what I have interpreted and learned through experience. I certainly cannot force you to see my point of view and would not try. I can only defend my position. These are not fighting words, kids.

Lastly,
We may read the intentions of someone's post very differently from what the original tone was. None of us are professional writers (I don't think anyway) that are experts in inputing the correct words and usage to create the tone we have in mind. We can be misunderstood. The internet, for this very reason, is not always the best place for discussion and certainly not the place to engage in word combat. Let's have some peace here.....please?