Gothic Belly dance

[Desideria]

Well after reading ELEVEN pages of mostly snobbish, holier than thou, catty remarks....well I actually feel like I need a freaking shower to wash the filth off of me!

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

Are you people so threatened by what you don't understand that all you can do is put the Gothic dance form down? That's truly heartbreaking.

I see the merits of retaining the "traditional" Middle Eastern dances in their original forms (or as close to their original forms as we can possibly can)..and as a historian I deeply appreciate those who do so. Dancing those styles though simply isn't for me. That's okay.

I've been a dancer my entire life-classical ballet, jazz, modern dance, now bellydance. I started in American cabaret and found my way to ATS then into tribal fusion now Gothic fusion. Does that mean I am no longer a bellydancer? Absolutely not! Because my costuming is sequined and bright pink (although I am highly partial to orange) doesn't exclude me from the Bellydance lineage. My dance vocabulary is 90% bellydance movements with the remaining bits being my former training and some Goth clubby type moves.

Musically, I choose to dance to what MOVES me. Whether it be a techno piece or something more traditional, I am still a bellydancer and on that I stand firm.

This shouldn't be a battle of "Our style is better than YOUR style"..when did we revert back to fourth grade???

Bottom line: Dancer's bodies ALL speak the same language, no matter WHAT the costuming or music.

I just wish everyone would drop their damn egos and misconceptions and realize that.

Oh and in regards to the lit-tle snipes bagging on Gothic bellydance, Tempest has put out TWO DVDs, how many do YOU girls have out??? HMMMM????

Hey Obsidia thank Goddess there are more of us Gothic dancers here....

Like you I also danced my whole life. classical-Ballet, tap in my youth, Jazz, Flamenco in my teens later on in my adulthood(twentys) it was African, Brazilian, Indian and ME. I furthered my Flamenco, Latin Ballroom, and ME studies/training well into my years.( have credits/background list to prove it. I say I have over a 40 year dance span (I am 44) and proud of my age and experience. I grew up in NYC with my entertainer parents. They raised me on 8th ave venues and back stages with BELLY DANCERS.

During my twentys I ate, slept LIVED DANCE! classes, book reading, practice, shows, auditions on and off broadway even with theatrical shows and rock bands. I also started choreographing my own groups as well as design my own stage clothes. Which I am still doing it all.

Like you I also dance to what moves me. I do traditonal ethnic dance as well as my alternative Ethno-Fusion styles of ( Gothic, Metal, Industrial or fantasy BELLY DANCE) what ever I am in the mood for or depending on the Gig, venue or event.

If a dancer is trained or even learns because its in her blood! to move like a Belly dancer. If I am useing my hips, stomach muscles, undulations , snake arms ( and all ME moves) Then I am belly dancing.

No matter what color, theme, costume or song I am using. also Just because I choose to use a certain style of song does not mean I can not do a certain dance tecnique( which I think I am highly qualified after 38 years).


All in all miss AA I do not know you from a whole in the wall. But from all the post I am reading from you you seem to have issues with everything and everyone . With all your demeaning condesending comments, rudeness Belittling of others( especially your peers) the very people that taught you how to BELLY DANCE. I see nothing but insults from you ranting , raving and judgmental attitude in all your posts.

I am wondering do you have a life? Do you work, teach, perform?? If so why are you in here every day B( cant say it) at everyone!! You must have a problem with yourself. Serious personal issues. Because MY DEAR!! if you were a happy, secure, confident woman with a life!! You would not be in here judgeing and ranting about EVERYONE.

You are getting on my nerves! Please Shut up already will you go look at yourself in the mirror!!!And leave the rest of us here to help one another and network!!!

Now if you'll excuse me !
I have to finish sewing my costume, practicing and preparing for my show tomorrow at a Humaine Society Fund raiser. Where I will be doing a "GOTHIC BELLY DANCE "number.

 

[TribalDancer]

Well after reading ELEVEN pages of mostly snobbish, holier than thou, catty remarks....well I actually feel like I need a freaking shower to wash the filth off of me!

I just don't see that much that is catty or holier than thou. I see a lot of impassioned opinions. I know that when we feel under fire, it is very easy to read vitriol into people's posts where there is none. When replying online, I suggest you try to take everything as innocent opinion (even if it clearly isn't), and respond seriously and tactfully. Don't respond to baiting, and don't take it personally. Be logical and articulate--it is the best thing you can do to defend your art. To slash back only hurts your position (and by "you" I mean the royal "You"--referring to all of us who have faced similar situations)

Are you people so threatened by what you don't understand that all you can do is put the Gothic dance form down? That's truly heartbreaking.

Again, I don't see most people on here as putting anything down. They have differing opinions on definitions and the use of terminology. 99% of the time these "purist versus fusion" arguments hinge on the use of a word--someone wants to own it for what they do and not be lumped in with another group they think isn't similar to them. It's a natural human thing, and I get it. I feel that way about tribal lots of times!

I see the merits of retaining the "traditional" Middle Eastern dances in their original forms (or as close to their original forms as we can possibly can)..and as a historian I deeply appreciate those who do so. Dancing those styles though simply isn't for me. That's okay.

WORD!

This shouldn't be a battle of "Our style is better than YOUR style"..when did we revert back to fourth grade???

I think I missed something. I haven't seen childish behavior, with the exception of some arms-crossed-over-chest reactions to opinion, but it's because people are hurt or feel excluded by some of the opinions expressed. I understand that. But I haven't heard ANYONE say their style was better. They may prefer their style, they may wish that other people had a different name for the style they do than "bellydance", but that's about it. Some of the language could have been a little softer or more tactful, certainly, but without tone of voice and facial expressions, you gotta take some comments with a grain of salt!

Bottom line: Dancer's bodies ALL speak the same language, no matter WHAT the costuming or music.

I just wish everyone would drop their damn egos and misconceptions and realize that.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you clear up what you mean by "all speak the same language"? Because by my interpretation, I would have to say that isn't at all true. I would say that the "language" (which to me would include mood, message, "story", if you will) that an Egyptian dancer conveys on stage is very different from what a tribal dancer does, or a goth dancer does, or a goddess dancer does. The moves may be similar, but the language of the body is VERY different in my experience. So perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by this?

Oh and in regards to the lit-tle snipes bagging on Gothic bellydance, Tempest has put out TWO DVDs, how many do YOU girls have out??? HMMMM????

Hon, you COMPLETELY LOST ME on this one. There are hundreds (thousands?) of amazing performers out there who do not have the resources (time, money, friends-in-the-biz, or interest) necessary to put out a video. And nor does HAVING a video automatically mean you are better/more worthy than those without a video. Often it just means you know someone who has a studio and is willing to put you on a video--where else do all the CRAP videos out there come from, otherwise?!

Sorry, but your comment was truly one of the most dismissive, ignorant, and 4th grade comments I have read in this entire thread, I am sorry to say. I appreciate that you are here feeling backed in the corner a little bit (I have been there, sister, so I feel for you), but you catch far more flies with honey than vinegar, as they say, and this inteded "slap" of a comment to close your arguments weakened all the others before it...

(Edited to add: In re-reading this, my post sounds kinda harsh on you hon. What I wanted to convey is that it is easy to be offended by what others say when they are sharing an opinion which puts your style--your heart and soul--in the hot seat. I have had to defend my style of tribal as bellydance for a long time. And though I hate having to do it, I completely understand the opinions of others who don't see it the way I do. Aisha and I do NOT agree on this point, for instance, but I totally get where she is coming from with her stance on what constitutes bellydance--I just don't agree.

So in the end, I want to say I have been on your side of things, and am ON your side that gothic fusion in bellydance is still BELLYDANCE {in most cases I have seen, including and barring several on the Gothic DVD, sadly}. I just hope you can see that people are not making value judgements, but instead are discussing language and semantics of the word "bellydance". So please forgive the seeming harshness--that was not my intent!

 

[Salome]

I am posting as a Moderator of this board.

All in all miss AA I do not know you from a whole in the wall. But from all the post I am reading from you you seem to have issues with everything and everyone . With all your demeaning condesending comments, rudeness Belittling of others( especially your peers) the very people that taught you how to BELLY DANCE. I see nothing but insults from you ranting , raving and judgmental attitude in all your posts.

I am wondering do you have a life? Do you work, teach, perform?? If so why are you in here every day B( cant say it) at everyone!! You must have a problem with yourself. Serious personal issues. Because MY DEAR!! if you were a happy, secure, confident woman with a life!! You would not be in here judgeing and ranting about EVERYONE.

You are getting on my nerves! Please Shut up already will you go look at yourself in the mirror!!!And leave the rest of us here to help one another and network!!!

Now if you'll excuse me !
I have to finish sewing my costume, practicing and preparing for my show tomorrow at a Humaine Society Fund raiser. Where I will be doing a "GOTHIC BELLY DANCE "number.

Oh and in regards to the lit-tle snipes bagging on Gothic bellydance, Tempest has put out TWO DVDs, how many do YOU girls have out??? HMMMM????

I understand that when people are on opposite ends of a spectrum and feel passionately about their position discussions can feel personal and reactions can get personal. However, this kind of abusive posting is completely unacceptable here. I will not tolerate anyone talking to another member in this manner on my forum.

There are two rules of this forum, one is that members refrain from being abusive to other members and that topics be related to dance from and inspired by the Middle East. Every member is not only welcome but encouraged to share their points of view. But that needs to happen in a civil manner.

 

[Makeda Maysa]

Bravo, Salome!

I've enjoyed reading the vast majority of this thread (and the other impassioned threads throughout the forums) because I'm receiving such an education - both from those who are in favor of more specific labeling and from those who defend the right to call their fusion styles "bellydance". I have been especially interested in the replies of the gothic bellydancers, as I don't know much about that form and am eager to learn what defines gothic bellydance and where I can go to get more information. However, I have to say, as an objective party, that posts filled with snarkiness, cattiness, unwarranted personal attacks, etc. do not show the posters in the best light and don't make me want to ask any further questions or explore the topic further.

I come to forums like Orientaldancer to learn and to network with others who love the dance as much as I do. Though we may disagree with one anothers' views, it is not necessary, nor even profitable, to allow those disagreements to degenerate into internet catfights. We are all more mature and more intelligent than this.

 

[tim ema]

Another Bravo from me, Salome!

As a new bellydancer, I'm very much drawn to the "Dance Styles" threads to learn about what's what and 90% of this thread has been very informative, but the 10% that was off track...Woo!

I do find it interesting, this issue of terminology. For many years I trained as a visual artist and an artist's style and an artist's medium are two different things. Two artists may use the same medium (watercolours/pastels/etc) but one may be a Pointilist and the other a Realist. One's style may be influenced by one's medium - and some mediums certainly are better suited to certain styles - but they are easily separated and distinguished. One is how you are painting and the other is what you are painting with.

In dance I am just realizing how difficult this is to do. The medium and the style are so interconnected! It's no wonder issues arise regarding terminology!
Is the costume in indicator of style or merely the medium, the paint being used? The moves - they are WHAT you are working with to create the dance, so medium right? But it is those moves and how they are put together that determines the style.
One person believes that an essential part of the style has been changed in a certain dance and does not want it called "Cubist". Another claims the alteration is merely moving from watercolour to conte crayon and wonders what that has to do with whether or not they're a Cubist.

So... is the term "bellydance" a descriptor of style - therefore requiring strict parameters of compliance to be regarded in that category (afterall, you can't paint melting clocks and call yourself a Classicist!), or is it the name of an inventory of moves and visual/audio cues (costume, hair, music) that is in essence a medium - like a box of crayons - that people can take and use to create any art they want?

There is, I believe, another thread for the "what is bellydance" question - and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I wanted to express that I did get something unexpected from reading these disagreements - seeing people talking about the same thing - but NOT talking about the same thing. I have seen similar discussions regarding other dance forms - and now I finally understand the source of the frustration.

One learns from all things, yes?

AT

 

[Recnadocir]

Dear Aisha,

I did not use the word authentic. You must be thinking of someone else's post.

Dear Tim'ema,
Wonderful and well reasoned posting. I think that some do confuse form and content. The belly dance movement inventory is the form, and everything else is content. Movement is movement, it is how you put the movements together in enchainement plus the music and other trappings you choose, that creates your content, or style. If you use movement from the belly dance movement inventory, you are doing belly dance movement, whether it is 10% or 100% of all the movement in your dance. The debate for some is what percentage of belly dance movement has to be present before you can call it belly dance. Silly really. Who cares? Call it what you want.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth etc.

Dear Rico,
In post #108, you asked me to define the word "authentic".
I added the bit about "traditional" because once on another forum, we were disucssing the term "authentic" and it got sort of confused with "traditional" so I thought I should do an addendum.
I had also asked you why you did not think authentic dance is creative...???
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Jeffrey]

Hello A'isha

With all due respectd to you dear lady, please call your dance anything you like, but don't be upset or intolerant if the rest of the world doesn't fully accept your narrow definition. That being said, I'm quite certain that I would very much appreciate and enjoy the type of dancing that you do, becauser I am an avid fan of dance....all sorts.
It is silly and fruitless to get into a muscle flexing competition over who has more experience and is better educated on this topic because many of us just appear as names on a blog, so it is also presumtuous to assume that you can tell all about a person from the very narrow and often summarized profiles on any page (personally I get very suspicious of overly packed profiles, but that's just me).
It is obvious that much of what you wrote was perceived as an attack against other artists and their chosen modes of expression and many of them responded in an extremely hostile manner, for that I am sorry that you were attacked. You have very very strong opinions and it is obvious that you will not budge from your stance. I personally feel that you are incorrect, as do many others, but you certainly have a right to your own opinion. It is when you try to force your opinion on others as fact that I find troublesome. Maybe I'm just old and have been around a bit too long, but I have found that as have gotten older, I am much more comfortable in my own skin and am much more open to what others have to offer, without making rash judgements. I don't know if this applies to you or not, because to be quite honest, I don't really know you and often the mood and temperment of a written posting is easy to miss read.
I suppose what I am sayoing is applicable to everyone. Even if you have a very definite and clear path with one mode of expression, please stay open to enjoying and experiencing other modes. In the end it can really enrich your life.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth etc.

Dear Jeffrey,
Though I will no longer be responding to those who have been really nasty,I am responding to you because you have been polite and on task as far as writing about the issues and not about me (for the most part, though I did get the impression that you were not aware that I had any kind of dance education outside my major focuses, hence the rundown on my studies. I also have studied sociology, anthropology, history, etc, but that is just to let you know that my opinons are not based on dance lore alone, but on information garnered from many different fields of study. The only job besides dance that I have had for a long time was as costume designer at a university and I took advantage of all opportunities to further my own education. I am not being a smart-ass here, just trying to tell you a little bit more who I am, I hope you understand. I am 53 years old and do have at least some life experience.
I said that Goth was meaningless as belly dance but had merit as art and I made it pretty clear that was my opinion. I wrote "As far as I am concerned", at the end of that statement. I did not in any way imply that my word was law, only stated what I thought.
You give advice to be "open to enjoying and experiencing other modes". If anyone here is under the impression that I amnot, they are mistaken. I have stated on this forum before that I think Rachel Brice is the truly wonderful dancer in the BDSS performances. I have told dancers who are looking for good teachers in Washington that if they are interested in tribal, Sharon Moore is the lady because her group is a delight to see. This is because I see the merit in the style. I just don't call it "belly dance". If I truly had a derogatory attitude toward it, I would not even mention it as a valid dance form. I have also sponsored people who are not teaching or performing authentic ethnic dance, because I see deep value in what they offer. Salome and Sikander Jaad are two examples.
Yes, I want people to define their art forms clearly for the sake of students and the general public, but that does not mean that I can't recognize great work when I see it.
I think people need to pay closer attention to what it is that I am saying before deciding that I am all of the things that I have been described as in this thread.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Desideria]

I am posting as a Moderator of this board.





I understand that when people are on opposite ends of a spectrum and feel passionately about their position discussions can feel personal and reactions can get personal. However, this kind of abusive posting is completely unacceptable here. I will not tolerate anyone talking to another member in this manner on my forum.

There are two rules of this forum, one is that members refrain from being abusive to other members and that topics be related to dance from and inspired by the Middle East. Every member is not only welcome but encouraged to share their points of view. But that needs to happen in a civil manner.

Salome
I respect what you are saying . I am in no way an evil doer I apoligize for my rudeness in telling her to shut up. But I do not withhold my defense as I do feel I and others have been insulted and very rudely treated on numerous posts by her.

I leave it to the rest here to fight the battle. I was just very tired of the posts I saw .

Good luck people enjoy the forum.

 

[Recnadocir]

Dear Rico,
In post #108, you asked me to define the word "authentic".
I added the bit about "traditional" because once on another forum, we were disucssing the term "authentic" and it got sort of confused with "traditional" so I thought I should do an addendum.
I had also asked you why you did not think authentic dance is creative...???
Regards,
A'isha

Hmm, well, I still don't know where I said "authentic dance is not creative". But to say there is "authentic" dance implies that there is "inauthentic" dance, and who makes the decision what is "authentic" vs. "inauthentic?" "Authentic" still seems like a buzz word to me, much as modern dance academics and critics use terms like "honest choreography," and "deeply felt movement." To me, as no dance that comes from the heart, however wildly experimental, can be inauthentic.

As for the rest, I think that there are choreographers who are driven to experiment and try to make something new, and those who place more value on preserving the dance as it is, and minimizing experimentation. I think I was clear in the post of reference that I believe both types of choreographers exist, and can and should co-exist. Certainly even traditionalists are "creating," in that they are making numerous decisions and choices during the choreographic process: about music, about costuming, about movements to include or not, about movement phrasing, etc. However, I am challenged to call to mind an artist of note in any genre, with any significant legacy, who was only content to be creative on this level. At the highest level of creativity, I believe, there will be fusion and synthesis, a birth of something new, which may or may not appeal to the masses or to the artist's peers, but which will stand the proof of time and resonate with future generations.

It's like the difference between a Salieri and a Mozart.

 

[Obsidia]

Apology

I apologize if I came across as rude to anyone. When you consistently have to defend your right to call yourself a bellydancer, it tends to make you rather touchy.

I am happy if I can provide anyone with some insight on the art of Gothic Bellydance and answer any questions.

I was offended and lashed out as such-for my CHOICE of words, I apologize, the passion and feeling in which I defend my artform as a Gothic bellydancer I do not apologize for.

I do still feel I am being insulted when a person says my form of bellydance is "meaningless" but if one chooses to see it that what, so be it.

To everyone else, again, deep apologies for my exhuberant passion and quick fire. Sometimes "Momma Bear" comes out a bit quickly....

Namaste

 

[sedoniaraqs]

I am a latecomer to this thread, but I'd just like to say that I read through the replies twice, and I cannot see where A'isha has been rude or spoken inappropriately at all.

Those who have been at this forum or others where A'isha posts know that she is opinionated, but is always willing to agree to disagree with other opinionated people in a reasonably polite way. I know her personally and I think in many ways she is very open-minded and progressive in her views of the world.

On the other hand, I find the tone of many (not all) of the "pro-gothic bellydance" posts to be very reactionary and defensive, and some of them are rather rude. It seems like the two who took the most offense are newcomers to the forum, and rather than taking an opportunity to get to know some of the locals, have instead decided to take insult where none was intended.

I am always amused/saddened by people who think that others expressing their opinion is somehow oppressive.

Sedonia

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth, etc.

Dear Rico,
I apologize if I misunderstood your comment and thanks for the explanation about yuur take on creativity.
RE authenticity:
If I am Morris dancer ( about which I know very little but did note some similarties between Takhtib and Morris...) and I still do the dance to Morris patterns, using Saidi music, in a gelebiya, keeping the same little sticks instead of using staffs, except I now use them occsionally in the manner of the Takhtib dancer, am I an authentic Morris dancer or an authentic Takhtib dancer? No, I am a person who is combining two things that cease to have meaning as their orginal forms and become something else.
I stated that the dances of innovation and fusion are also authetnic unto themselves. Perhaps you did not read that far into my post?
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Salome]

I was offended and lashed out as such-for my CHOICE of words, I apologize, the passion and feeling in which I defend my artform as a Gothic bellydancer I do not apologize for.

Hi Obsidia,

thanks for your post It seems that there are several participants in this thread (and probably readers too) who are genuinely curious about the style you are doing. I'm glad you stuck around as I'm sure they'd like to draw on your knowledge! Happy posting.

 

[Aniseteph]

.... am I an authentic Morris dancer or an authentic Takhtib dancer? No, I am a person who is combining two things that cease to have meaning as their orginal forms and become something else.

...and you never were a proper Morris dancer in some people's eyes, because you're female!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Goth, etc.

Dear Sedonia,
Hello and thank you!!

Dear Aniseteph,
I did not mean me as such,... should have said " a man", or something similar ,but I am also very glad you pointed that out, because there is one more reason why it would not be authentically Morris!! Darn once again... A godmother but not a god!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Obsidia]

Hi Obsidia,

thanks for your post It seems that there are several participants in this thread (and probably readers too) who are genuinely curious about the style you are doing. I'm glad you stuck around as I'm sure they'd like to draw on your knowledge! Happy posting.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I look forward to reading up through some of the topics and learning about other people's styles, learning more in GENERAL about our amazing artform and getting to know everyone.

Namaste

 

[Aniseteph]

I did not mean me as such,... should have said " a man", or something similar

I know what you meant - but maybe we could infiltrate the Men Only Morris world by sporting fake beards*! Now there's a movie I'd go to see...
A xxx

*idea copyright me 2006 in case any Hollywood mogul gets any ideas...

 

[tim ema]

............Dear Tim'ema,
Wonderful and well reasoned posting. I think that some do confuse form and content. The belly dance movement inventory is the form, and everything else is content. .....

Thank you for the response and the compliment! As I mentioned, I am not only new to BD, but new to dance as a whole, and many of these things are "eureka" moments for me.
I appreciate the clarificaton!


AT