what do you consider to be damaging to the future of Middle Eastern dance?

[lizaj]

MED should have an education beyond the dance moves in my opinion.
Culture is integral to the dance and every teacher should have a little grounding at least in this. There really is no exuse these days.

At Ahlan I was surprised to see people leaving the grounds of the Mena house in peak hour wearing little or no clothing, some in belly dance attire and walking the streets back to their various hotels and some stopping of at a restaurant for a bite to eat. Do people not pack their brains with their under wear etc.

I am amazes me that festivals like these dont have serious security risks.
It only takes one unbalanced individual to take offence and the whole thing could escalate into something very nasty which could potentially put everyone at risk.

I suppose the woman I saw walking through Blackpool in broad daylight in a black bedlah and sheer black petal skirt revealing her knickers thought she fitted in quite well with the general tone of things. I just hope the GP thought she was in fancy dress rather than that she was a real belly dancer!

Then again I have seen dancers nip down the road in Saltaire for their butties wearing full skirt, bra tops and coin belts so why not Cairo and Istanbul!

 

[jenc]

Wasn't that rather restrained for Blackpool?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

YES IT WAS!!!

Blackpool.... Cairo...AAH

I know Lizaj was actually joking here.
She has had to face this sort of thing too. She encountered a local dancer in full gear in Luxor airport once and nearly never got on the same flight with shame.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance,etc.

YES IT WAS!!!

Blackpool.... Cairo...AAH

I know Lizaj was actually joking here.
She has had to face this sort of thing too. She encountered a local dancer in full gear in Luxor airport once and nearly never got on the same flight with shame.

Dear Gang,
But again, this is OUR fault. We tell our students they can show up dressed with a cover up, go out into the audience with a "cover up", etc. Some teachers don't say anything at all about this kind of thing to their students. I have seen people show up at other peoples' shows dressed as if they were going to perform! My dancers are obligated to follow the same rules that are followed by actors and actresses and singer and nearly everyone in the entertainment field. That is, in public one wears street clothing, NOT costuming or anything that resembles costuming. I cringe when I see dancers appear at all of these functions in their costumes, or in cover ups. It says "amateur" all over it. We need to train our students from the beginning that costumes are for the stage, not for street wear or for sitting in the audience. For some, I think its kind of like a big attention getting sign. They might as well hold up a big poster saying, "I"M A BELLY DANCER TOO!!!!" Cover ups give the same message in a more subtle way.
I think this is damaging to our art form because the message is that we are not professional enough to conduct ourselves by the rules that other professionals follow. You never see a ballerina show up in her tutu to another group's show!!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Suheir]

Dear Gang,
But again, this is OUR fault. We tell our students they can show up dressed with a cover up, go out into the audience with a "cover up", etc. Some teachers don't say anything at all about this kind of thing to their students. I have seen people show up at other peoples' shows dressed as if they were going to perform! My dancers are obligated to follow the same rules that are followed by actors and actresses and singer and nearly everyone in the entertainment field. That is, in public one wears street clothing, NOT costuming or anything that resembles costuming. I cringe when I see dancers appear at all of these functions in their costumes, or in cover ups. It says "amateur" all over it. We need to train our students from the beginning that costumes are for the stage, not for street wear or for sitting in the audience. For some, I think its kind of like a big attention getting sign. They might as well hold up a big poster saying, "I"M A BELLY DANCER TOO!!!!" Cover ups give the same message in a more subtle way.
Regards,
A'isha

I agree. I remember sitting in the audience for the BDSS show and boggling at all the women in the audience who were dressed in bedlah. I think it just turns it into fancy dress and demeans belly dance.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I agree agree agree.
This will remove the fun out of the hobby for many though and vendors will suffer as a result too.
I said before that alot of the attraction to this dance is the costume and lack of opportunities to get dressed up would half the dance population.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

I agree agree agree.
This will remove the fun out of the hobby for many though and vendors will suffer as a result too.
I said before that alot of the attraction to this dance is the costume and lack of opportunities to get dressed up would half the dance population.

Dear Caroline,
You are probably right~~~~~~~~~~~~~, but those who are left would hopefully be those who invest financially, emotionally and sincerely in the dance itself!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Lydia]

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar
Dear Gang,
But again, this is OUR fault. We tell our students they can show up dressed with a cover up, go out into the audience with a "cover up", etc. Some teachers don't say anything at all about this kind of thing to their students. I have seen people show up at other peoples' shows dressed as if they were going to perform! My dancers are obligated to follow the same rules that are followed by actors and actresses and singer and nearly everyone in the entertainment field. That is, in public one wears street clothing, NOT costuming or anything that resembles costuming. I cringe when I see dancers appear at all of these functions in their costumes, or in cover ups. It says "amateur" all over it. We need to train our students from the beginning that costumes are for the stage, not for street wear or for sitting in the audience. For some, I think its kind of like a big attention getting sign. They might as well hold up a big poster saying, "I"M A BELLY DANCER TOO!!!!" Cover ups give the same message in a more subtle way.
Regards,
A'isha


thank you dear!!!!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I agree. I remember sitting in the audience for the BDSS show and boggling at all the women in the audience who were dressed in bedlah. I think it just turns it into fancy dress and demeans belly dance.

Yes, you are totally right. It really is one big fancy dress party and you and I will be called miserable old corws and party poopers for echoing such thoughts.
I am going to see Khaled tonight at the Philharminic Hall in Liverpool...I dread to think. fingers crossed.

By the way.
We own a small Egyptian restaurant (Shisha and food) in Liverpool and the customers are 80% Arab with students from the uni etc.

About 2 years ago a group of women came for a meal they were all decked out like christmas trees. They had asked if they could bring a belly dancer and I told them they could after closing hours.

They brought their own wine etc. and got louder and louder.
After about an hour or so, they all jumped up and started dancing. That was Ok. Then they started doing floorwork (not OK) they were very bad at everything and it was a nightmare. They jumped onto our tables and camel saddles and broke one them. At first it was a source of amusement for the other customers but then they left as they could not cope with the behaviour. I had to throw them out in the end. It made ME very afraid to book any group of women in for a reservation incase they turned out to be belly dancers!
I never declare to anyone that I dance as you never know who has been before you!

 

[Tina Rules]

Belly dance -what is it? Egypt prohibites belly danceing. So is belly dance not excisting anymore? There has been so many changes in the Middle East regarding belly dance. Which one is the "corretct" Middle East style? How about Saidi, is that belly dance -or is it a deluted form of belly dance...how about Nubian style ?

For me, I wasn't born in the Middle East. I wasn't born into the culture, I wasn't familiar with the music from birth. I do love the movements, the music, the beats...Is belly dance a deluted form af Indian dance? You can easily say yes to this. Of course, belly dance, as we know it, develops in style as many other things develop.

Dance is a human form of expression and if it doesn't develop, the world will stand still... The dance was taken the West at some point and therefore it undergoes a lot of change.

Salsa, for example, is a deluted form of belly dance.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

Dear Tina,

[

QUOTE=Tina Rules;79102]Belly dance -what is it?

Belly dance is a specific ethnic style of dance that utilizes certain movement families, to certain types of music, with a very distinctive spirit and essence that is difficult to describe but very easy to see and feel.

Egypt prohibites belly danceing. So is belly dance not excisting anymore?

No, Egypt does not prohibit belly dance and it definitely does still exist there and in Turkey and Lebanon as well as other Middle Eastern countries that emulate one of these three main styles.

There has been so many changes in the Middle East regarding belly dance. Which one is the "corretct" Middle East style?

I would say that this is not an accurate statement. There have been some superficial changes in the dance as far as costuming, and in some musical choices, but at its heart and spirit and essence, the dance remains the same and its movement base is still the same as well, though some movements are now more utilized than than they used to be. The dance goes through phases, as does everything in life. They are all the "correct" Middle East style when it comes to what Egyptians, Lebanese, and Turks are developing. It is when westerners develop styles that do not include that Middle Eastern spirit and essence, and begin to tweak movement in ways that are inconsistent with that spirit, that the dance becomes, "incorrect" if it is still labeled as belly dance.

How about Saidi, is that belly dance -or is it a deluted form of belly dance...how about Nubian style ?

Saidi is not a diluted belly dance. In fact it is far older than belly dance and belly dance takes some of its root movement concepts from Saidi. Nubian dance is also much older.

For me, I wasn't born in the Middle East. I wasn't born into the culture, I wasn't familiar with the music from birth. I do love the movements, the music, the beats...Is belly dance a deluted form af Indian dance? You can easily say yes to this. Of course, belly dance, as we know it, develops in style as many other things develop.

Much of Hindi dance is based on ritual and careful choreography, with each movement, each glance of the eye each turn of the foot meaning something. Belly dance is one of the least ritualistic dance forms that I can name. The dance is not related to Indian dance as far as I can see, either in meaning and purpose, or in movement. One can not really easily say yes to there being a connection unless one is really stretching. What is wrong with giving Middle Easterners the credit for developing their own dances?

Dance is a human form of expression and if it doesn't develop, the world will stand still... The dance was taken the West at some point and therefore it undergoes a lot of change.

Yes, and there is a point at which what develops here in the West is so far removed from the realities of the dance that it no longer can be called "belly dance".

Salsa, for example, is a deluted form of belly dance.

I am not sure where you got that information, but it might be really incorrect. I have seen good salsa and there is nothing diluted from belly dance about it. It has a flavor and meaning and feeling all of its own, so let's not take this fabulous dance away from the Latin roots in which it developed.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[jenc]

Why do people want to link every kind of dance together. There are only so many bits of the body you can move. Surely it is possible for similar dance movemnts to involve simultaneously and separately at the opposite sides of the world.

 

[taheya]

I agree. I remember sitting in the audience for the BDSS show and boggling at all the women in the audience who were dressed in bedlah. I think it just turns it into fancy dress and demeans belly dance.

I agree too! I really dont like it when people dress up in all the gear when they are not performing. I know alot of people love doing this and may not got the opportunity to perform so wearing costumes at haflas may be their only opportunity but it really doesnt look good on the reputation of the dance.. discredits it and makes it into a joke almost.
I think it is worse when there are members of the public there who dont know anything about the dance...not so bad if it is a student hafla with no members of the public there.

 

[lizaj]

I agree too! I really dont like it when people dress up in all the gear when they are not performing. I know alot of people love doing this and may not got the opportunity to perform so wearing costumes at haflas may be their only opportunity but it really doesnt look good on the reputation of the dance.. discredits it and makes it into a joke almost.
I think it is worse when there are members of the public there who dont know anything about the dance...not so bad if it is a student hafla with no members of the public there.

I don't see a problem about going to a hafla in a costume even if you aren't performing. But to a theatre..how uncomfortable let alone silly is that!?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Entertainment ettiquette

I don't see a problem about going to a hafla in a costume even if you aren't performing. But to a theatre..how uncomfortable let alone silly is that!?

Dear Lizaj,
Amateur actors, singers, amateur dancers in other fields, etc. are trained from the first not to wear costumes except when they are either on stage or in the Green Room Any public area is off limits as far as costuming goes, unless t6hat public area is standing in for the stage. If Middle Eastern dancers want to be taken seriously by other dancers and by entertainment professionals, we need to start paying more attention to what separates us out from those who ARE taken seriously and this is just one place to start on an overall image improvement program.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[lizaj]

Dear Lizaj,
Amateur actors, singers, amateur dancers in other fields, etc. are trained from the first not to wear costumes except when they are either on stage or in the Green Room Any public area is off limits as far as costuming goes, unless t6hat public area is standing in for the stage. If Middle Eastern dancers want to be taken seriously by other dancers and by entertainment professionals, we need to start paying more attention to what separates us out from those who ARE taken seriously and this is just one place to start on an overall image improvement program.
Regards,
A'isha

You might be soooo correct but here in the UK when we talk haflas, we are talking party not always performance platforms.Girls wanna dress up for parties yes? AND....as there are bazaars at haflas they sell the costumes to students who maybe will NEVER perform. Some haflas are relaxed without more than a couple of performances and then everyone gets up and boogies to have fun and I am not going to condemn the girl who wants to put on her glitter .
You don't have to tell me personally how to behave because unless I am performing I am in civvies. But then I get to perform and wear my costumes. My point is that I can forgive the girl who turns up at an informal party hafla in a costume ( and some organisers encourage it) BUT I think is painfully stupid to go to a theatre show earing a bedlah. This did happen at Raqs B in Blackpool but then again there was an after show boogie with Natasha Atlas.

Forgive me but your post comes across that here in the little 'ol UK folks like me don't quite know how to behave.Caroline Afifi will soon kick me into touch if I don't behave as I should as a member of a dance company. Oh I can assure you we do act as professionally a I can but at a Arabic dance party I am not going to poke fun/condemn the enthusiatic students who hasn't yet had the performance opportunities I have and who wants to wear her prized costume

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

You might be soooo correct but here in the UK when we talk haflas, we are talking party not always performance platforms.Girls wanna dress up for parties yes? AND....as there are bazaars at haflas they sell the costumes to students who maybe will NEVER perform. Some haflas are relaxed without more than a couple of performances and then everyone gets up and boogies to have fun and I am not going to condemn the girl who wants to put on her glitter .
You don't have to tell me personally how to behave because unless I am performing I am in civvies. But then I get to perform and wear my costumes. My point is that I can forgive the girl who turns up at an informal party hafla in a costume ( and some organisers encourage it) BUT I think is painfully stupid to go to a theatre show earing a bedlah. This did happen at Raqs B in Blackpool but then again there was an after show boogie with Natasha Atlas.

Forgive me but your post comes across that here in the little 'ol UK folks like me don't quite know how to behave.Caroline Afifi will soon kick me into touch if I don't behave as I should as a member of a dance company. Oh I can assure you we do act as professionally a I can but at a Arabic dance party I am not going to poke fun/condemn the enthusiatic students who hasn't yet had the performance opportunities I have and who wants to wear her prized costume

If you choose to be offended, go for it. I'm merely trying to tell you that I see a problem with the trend in the dance world that encourage students NOT to behave professionally. And we have the same problem here in the Statee so it was definitely NOT a poke at you in "the little ol' UK". When I attend Arab dance parties, the Arabs usually have one coin belt among them that we all take turns wearing, and everyone is dressed in street clothing. If you are referring to dance student haflas, that is where we are supposed to be teaching our students dance and entertainment ettiquette, but it does not happen here in the States either so take it however you want. I'm really so sick of people looking for personal insult where none is intended.

 

[jenc]

I wouldn't go to someone else's hafla ie where my group is not performing in full bedlah, but I would definately wear a nice skirt and take my coin belt. Here in the Uk, there are mostly no opportunities to perform outside of haflas, and the post performance party is the only opportunity I have to try out moves to music other than in my small livilng room. I also get the chance to try moves the other girls are doing etc. I think that unless you live in a big city in the Uk performance is dancing at a school fete or in a shopping mall with a collecting tin, so there is no danger of anyone taking us a serious artistes!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lizaj]

I wouldn't go to someone else's hafla ie where my group is not performing in full bedlah, but I would definately wear a nice skirt and take my coin belt. Here in the Uk, there are mostly no opportunities to perform outside of haflas, and the post performance party is the only opportunity I have to try out moves to music other than in my small livilng room. I also get the chance to try moves the other girls are doing etc. I think that unless you live in a big city in the Uk performance is dancing at a school fete or in a shopping mall with a collecting tin, so there is no danger of anyone taking us a serious artistes!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly and therefore it is a risk that we are seen as "fancy dressers" and the whole idea of belly dance is a bit of a joke.
On the other hand, at the risk of being put down again...dearie me..one is not even allowed to say how it is over here as opposed to in the USA where there are far more dancers and dance opportunities without it...at our kind of hafla which is a party for students and there are usually NO members of the GP, what harm will Miss 2 year dancer do by coming along to bop in her bedlah she has bought from the ******** bazaar.

 

[lizaj]

If you choose to be offended, go for it. I'm merely trying to tell you that I see a problem with the trend in the dance world that encourage students NOT to behave professionally. And we have the same problem here in the Statee so it was definitely NOT a poke at you in "the little ol' UK". When I attend Arab dance parties, the Arabs usually have one coin belt among them that we all take turns wearing, and everyone is dressed in street clothing. If you are referring to dance student haflas, that is where we are supposed to be teaching our students dance and entertainment ettiquette, but it does not happen here in the States either so take it however you want. I'm really so sick of people looking for personal insult where none is intended.

How can I be offended...you know little of the dance scene over here so I'll be more detailed.
We have haflas that are literally parties..every one boogies after maybe teacher and one class performance and teacher encourages everyone to dress in costumes if they wish
There are haflas that are one long performance platform (like mine were) and only performers dress in costume.
Neither of these attract either the GP nor the Arabic community (if there is one)
There are theatre staged performance platforms for local communities and here teachers will expect their classes to dress and behave in a more professional manner even if they are rank amateurs and have paid to be there
as there is a paying public.( but even this audience will be mainlybelly dancers ...in civvies.)
There are staged theatre performances were local professionals and teachers may dance and gain professional "conditions" reign because there is a paying public.
There are "haflas" or platforms at festivals where well known teachers and guests perform for attendees who are belly dancers. Professionalism rules for the performers but the attendees may dress up as there is a "party" after. these do NOT attract the GP.
As far as boogying is concerned I tend to do it in jeans and T shirt as I am too damn idle to dress up if I am not performing .
Apart from the silly women who get themselves at the opening of an envelope in "costume", floating around the High St on a rainy day in chiffon and talking into the TV reporters camera/mike about how good it is for their sex life, most belly dance events don't touch the GP and therefore wether a dancer wears a bedlah or not to an after show partyin exclusive premises is not going to effect our dance.
My offence Aisha is not that you seek to tell me about the US scene but that whenever I make a comment like this, your return post comes across as a put-down wether you intend it or not. The "tone" of your post came across as one-up manship and I don't think I'll be the only one who thinks that.
I bow to your superior knowledge of the dance in general and in the USA as you have obviously been performing and teaching longer than my 11 years so I obviously take heed to what you write and take it to heart.