Bellydance Competitions - What are the judges looking for?

[MissVega]

hello everyone!
So as many of you probably know by I now I used to be really competitive in the world of hunter horses. I love competeing and I love watching good competitions. Hunter is a judged style of jumping where the devil is in the details and I know what those details are, but I don't think I fully know/understand the details when it would come to judging bellydance. Can some of the more experienced dancers (or anyone with insight really) help me out with this. I know personal preference will always play a role and sometimes politics but I would like to think that usually at the end of the day be it horses or dance the "best" performance will win. In this case I preferred both the 2nd and 3rd place performances more than the first place, but 3rd place was my favourite. So I am calling upon the vast amount of knowledge on this forum to share their insight/opinions/experience

I was watching videos from the Ahlan Wa Sahlan competition and couldn't understand why the girl who won did. I found teh performances of the 1st and 2nd place dancers.

Here is the first place girl. I thought she had great belly flutters, backbends and chest lifts. But overall I had a really hard time finishing the video, I ketp getting bored and having to remind myself to pay attention. Her technique felt "heavy" to me, like the movements were laboured and not effortless. Her musicality was good, nothing stood out as looking off. I didn't care for the front slit on the costume though. Again this is all my personal opinion and I am still very new to the dance so hence I am asking. I am by no means saying this girl is a bad dancer or that she didn't deserve to win. I want to understand what about this made it a winning performance. If that makes sense.


Here is the 2nd place girl. Great spins, reminded me of Maria Shaskova. Costume fit her well. Good energy. Still felt a bit "heavy" to me in her movements, like the 1st place girl (maybe this is a style??? Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about lol).



And 3rd place. LOVE her costume. Beautiful Shimmies, again like the first two though a lot of her movement felt "heavy" to me. Great smile, nice musicality, had the best stage presence of the three of them ( to me anyway). Technique was good.



To be honest none of the performances from this years AWS competition blew me away, but last years winner, Dariya, Absolutely floored me so I guess it just depends on the year/personal preference??!!
Editted to add, I lied lol I just watched this one, this year's performance from the girl who won the children's category from last year... beautiful!!!!!!



THanks for those who take the time to look at this and reply Really appreciate it.

 

[~Diana~]

I've always wonderd that as well. I look forward to reading answers to this question.

 

[nouraki]

An other one who is wondering too, Me!

(the 2nd place girl remindes me Jillina, on face and hair lol)

 

[Darshiva]

The third placed dancer definitely has more fluid movement, but I can see where she lost points. She tended to accent all the strong beats, which got a bit repetitive even if the way she accented them wasn't. It came across heavy-handed to me. The other thing I noticed that would have been a points loss was that her finale pose was inelegant - she looked off-balance & stumbled a bit before going on to a very gracious & gorgeous exit. Both of those things could well have lost her more points than her beautiful routine gained her, pushing her back to third.

This is only my assumption. I'm not a dance judge, nor am I remotely close to this level of proficiency. I'm just very picky about what I like and don't like in dance.

I can see where the first placed dancer gained points. She accents different parts of the music, her movements are strong & clear. Perhaps not my preference in terms of style, but overall stronger & more balanced than the other two ladies.

I didn't like the second placed dancer's performance at all. Again, that's just me.

 

[Ranya]

I agree with Darshiva about the 3rd place girl.

But I really don't see why the girl in white won first place (at a festival as the AWS is, where I am sure there are some fantastic dancers from all over the world). I think her movements seemed very laboured, I saw on several occasions, that she was not able to perform smaller accents and only the very very BIG ones could be seen and that for me was over the top. And maybe she did accent the music in different ways as Darshiva pointed out, but for me she did not feel the music, she was just imitating the styles of Randa and Dina and co. and it really was obvious that it does not come naturally to her. Her hands were for me the weakest part, she was concentrating on having them AAAALL the time in the position that is now "en vogue" in egyptian style (pinkie is sticking out...), but it was so not pretty, she had them like that during the whooole dance and it looked like she was in a cramp. That's where it was obvious that this style does not come natural to her...
Now why I think she might have won this particular competition: first, we have to consider the other contestants - we did not see them all and maybe there were all worse than her. Second - we would have to know who the judges were and what they were looking for and also what was their relationship with the contestant.
I think these two are the most important parts.

In competitions in general I think that a judge is looking for the overall impression - costume, appearance, style, technique... everything has to be nice together.
However, from my own experience (not as a contestant but as a close friend of some renowned dancers who are often called to be judges on various competitions at festivals in Egypt and abroad), it is not always fair from a dance-perspective. I once witnessed a winner whom I personally would have disqualified because the rule was to dance raks sharki and NOT drum solo and she just mixed a drum solo with 30 second sharki entrance and 10 seconds sharki finale, and she was too robotic and no egyptian feeling etc... and she won because she was the most WOW and it was kind of a marketing trick, although two of the four judges were very serious dancers.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I really wonder about that too, but from what I've observed in the past, it seems like judges are real sticklers on technique more than artistic or even entertainment value. To me then, the competition becomes more of a sporting competition than a dance competition, when I always believed that dancing is more of an art than a game. It's why I am not a supporter of many competitions unfortunately.

 

[walladah]

I am not really fond of competitions

so I really do not understand the criteria by which a person may judge artists so that they are ordered as 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc.

The videos you posted are interesting, not because they are the best we have ever seen, but because they show how competition might impose a certain style on dancers who try to get the first place. Uniformity is inevitable in a competition, but do we seek uniformity in art?

If you asked me, I liked the last dance (the one with the little girl) much more than rest.

Sometime, i wonder why, instead of competitions, festivals are not organised, where artists can perform as they like, and the audience can decide which they like most. The only explanation for all those competitions I have found so far is hmmm... not a very good one.

 

[Shanazel]

I see several problems with belly dance contests, the least not being that judges generally evaluate dancers subjectively as opposed to objectively since there are no hard and fast criteria as to what a dancer includes in a performance or what constitutes a perfect performance. It is also an extremely artificial environment, where a dancer is not interacting with the audience and exchanging energy with the musicians so much as she is showcasing her best moves. A lot of the charm of belly dance is lost when a dancer fears she'll lose points if her belt slips a bit and needs to be adjusted. In a live performance for an audience who wishes only to be entertained, it is perfectly permissible to give a slight readjustment to a wandering belt a long with a smile for the audience that invites them into the small joke.

I only ever performed in a dance contest once and that was because my best student couldn't afford the fees for a solo dance and asked me to do a duet with her. The judges were aware that belly dance existed and were happy to see what is in this area is an unusual performance, but it was clear from their comments that they knew little about the form and judged the performance based on their criteria for other dance disciplines. We took the equivalent of second place based essentially on visual appeal, I think. It worth the experience to do it once, but I have no desire to compete again.

 

[MissVega]

I agree with Darshiva about the 3rd place girl.

But I really don't see why the girl in white won first place (at a festival as the AWS is, where I am sure there are some fantastic dancers from all over the world). I think her movements seemed very laboured, I saw on several occasions, that she was not able to perform smaller accents and only the very very BIG ones could be seen and that for me was over the top. And maybe she did accent the music in different ways as Darshiva pointed out, but for me she did not feel the music, she was just imitating the styles of Randa and Dina and co. and it really was obvious that it does not come naturally to her. Her hands were for me the weakest part, she was concentrating on having them AAAALL the time in the position that is now "en vogue" in egyptian style (pinkie is sticking out...), but it was so not pretty, she had them like that during the whooole dance and it looked like she was in a cramp. That's where it was obvious that this style does not come natural to her....

I couldn't have said it better myself. BUt I wasn't confident that I knew what I was talking about so I didn't say much, but it is nice ot know that it came across to someone else that way.

Now why I think she might have won this particular competition: first, we have to consider the other contestants - we did not see them all and maybe there were all worse than her. Second - we would have to know who the judges were and what they were looking for and also what was their relationship with the contestant.
I think these two are the most important parts.

In competitions in general I think that a judge is looking for the overall impression - costume, appearance, style, technique... everything has to be nice together.
However, from my own experience (not as a contestant but as a close friend of some renowned dancers who are often called to be judges on various competitions at festivals in Egypt and abroad), it is not always fair from a dance-perspective. I once witnessed a winner whom I personally would have disqualified because the rule was to dance raks sharki and NOT drum solo and she just mixed a drum solo with 30 second sharki entrance and 10 seconds sharki finale, and she was too robotic and no egyptian feeling etc... and she won because she was the most WOW and it was kind of a marketing trick, although two of the four judges were very serious dancers.

Perhaps open scoring would help clear the air on such issues. I've always loved it at shows when it is open scoring. Even when my score of 40 (out of 100) lol has been announced.. (really if you scored a 40 the mistake was so huge that you knew the score was coming anyway). It also helps to gauge your success. In an open scored class once my horse and I got 9th with a 77, the first place horse scored 86... it was nice to know where the scores wwere in relation. The 10th place horse had a 75 just over 10 point ifference between 1st and 10th which showed how close it was.

 

[MissVega]

I can appreciate the opinions of those who don't think that compeitions in the "arts" are the best idea as they would limit artistry because people will "want to do what will win". But On the flip side I think competitions are great for developing work eithic, thick skin (lol), ability to take and USE criticism, pushing yourself and promoting proper technique. But I grew up competeing so maybe that is personal bias. I seriously miss it And my horse and I weren't big winners, but I still loved it. Last season we showed was 2008 and we finished 29th nationally (lol) and 2nd for our zone provincially.

I think I need to enter a bellydance competition and feel it out for myself or something!?!?!

Darshiva: I agree that I didn'tcare for the 2nd girls performance, but in all honesty I didn't like the first place girls performance at all....?!? But as ranya said, perhaps just the best of what competed that year. But this brings me back to open scoring....I'd imagine if there is a numerical score used at compeitions the score for this girl would not have been in the league of the score that Dariya received last year? Or maybe it was really close in the opinion of this years judges. In any event it would be nice to know.

 

[Chani]

The third dancer did it for me also.

 

[Shanazel]

But On the flip side I think competitions are great for developing work eithic, thick skin (lol), ability to take and USE criticism, pushing yourself and promoting proper technique.

I agree with all that except for the promotion of proper technique, though I wish that were universally true. Lots of people love competition and I wish you the best of it, Miss Vega. Bet you do great.

 

[Darshiva]

Why does everyone seem to assume that I enjoyed the first placed dancer's performance? I thought that I was pretty clear that it wasn't my cup of tea.

I think that there is a difference between appreciating something and liking it (I went to art school, can you tell?) and that the two are definitely NOT mutually exclusive.

 

[MissVega]

I agree with all that except for the promotion of proper technique, though I wish that were universally true. Lots of people love competition and I wish you the best of it, Miss Vega. Bet you do great.

Yah I realized after I typed that the development of "trends".... and how they spread like wildfire in competitions (at least at horse shows).... I think you're right, it would be nice if it were true, but as you said, it's probably not the case.

LOL and thank you for your optimism and well wishes. I keep telling myself that If I can survive my horse and I smashing into a jump, surely nothing that bad could ever happen at a dance competition right?? *falls off stage*

Why does everyone seem to assume that I enjoyed the first placed dancer's performance? I thought that I was pretty clear that it wasn't my cup of tea.

I think that there is a difference between appreciating something and liking it (I went to art school, can you tell?) and that the two are definitely NOT mutually exclusive.

I didn't get the impression you enjoyed it, but you did analyze it well.

 

[Amulya]

I heard that sometimes judges have favorites beforehand. People they know and people who have sucked up to them. Not sure if that is true, maybe in some cases.

My opinion on contests is rather negative (still allowed to post it here ?), I find it very hard to judge dancers: each dancer has her/his own style. It it is nearly impossible to judge them against each other. As said before it is a non-natural environment for a dancer, so it's not how it normally would be. Maybe dancers who normally feel totally at easy with an audience would feel terribly nervous at a contest.

 

[Aniseteph]

I bet you get unexpected results sometimes when judging is broken down into different areas like technique, presentation, interpretation etc. The overall performance is not necessarily the sum of its parts.

I suppose it's the only fair way to do it, but there's potential to bias the competition with your marking scheme (I'm not saying it's necessarily a conscious thing). Do technical fireworks and difficult moves get you more points than keeping it simpler but having a rapport with the audience, or musical/emotional interpretation? Apart from judges tastes varying, the marking scheme could inherently favour one type of dancer over another, or mean that a dancer who really had that certain something did not get the marks on paper.

And another a big fat "hmmmmm..." from me on promoting proper technique. The potential is there, but they could end up promoting all sorts of random nonsense.

 

[Ranya]

Perhaps open scoring would help clear the air on such issues. I've always loved it at shows when it is open scoring. Even when my score of 40 (out of 100) lol has been announced.. (really if you scored a 40 the mistake was so huge that you knew the score was coming anyway). It also helps to gauge your success. In an open scored class once my horse and I got 9th with a 77, the first place horse scored 86... it was nice to know where the scores wwere in relation. The 10th place horse had a 75 just over 10 point ifference between 1st and 10th which showed how close it was.

Yes this is very true but here comes the problem with oriental dance (as Aniseteph pointed out already) - when you're doing for example a rhythmic gymnastics competition, you know that a 90degree arabesque is a 90degree arabesque and a 135 degree arabesque is 135 degree one, you have exact criteria... same goes for ballet competitions (like the Prix de Lausanne) - all these are dances where there is a very strict technique required and when you are dancing variation from a certain ballet piece, even the feeling/acting can be judged. Bellydance does not have this.

I might say it like this: I think a competition in Mahmoud Reda style dance could have open scoring, because Mr. Reda's technique is very codified and you can clearly see if such or such movement was well executed, if the dancer had the right feeling to her/his dance, the style, the timing etc... But bellydance as such cannot have open scoring I guess, because there is a huge freedom of dance movements (and that's why we love, isn't it? )

PS: I bet you and your horse are a great team. I used to go to agility competitions with my (now late) dog, but only on a regional level. We weren't brilliant but I loved doing it (and my dog too I guess coz he always had this happy dog face afterwards)!

 

[maria_harlequin]

I might say it like this: I think a competition in Mahmoud Reda style dance could have open scoring, because Mr. Reda's technique is very codified and you can clearly see if such or such movement was well executed, if the dancer had the right feeling to her/his dance, the style, the timing etc... But bellydance as such cannot have open scoring I guess, because there is a huge freedom of dance movements (and that's why we love, isn't it? )

You can also use a similar system for an ATS competition (God forbid!) such as complexity of combos, how well the rest of your group followed cues, group placement...since ATS is also very codified.

But a belly dance competition? Totally not for me and I don't think it's a dance that would work for competing. For example, I don't like doing mayas or upward figure 8's using your heels - but I understand it's a perfectly legit way to do them. I might dock points off for this but the judge next to me won't.

 

[Shanazel]

:shok:

I don't like doing mayas or upward figure 8's using your heels - but I understand it's a perfectly legit way to do them

:shok:

Not in MY class it isn't! :naghty:

 

[maria_harlequin]

:shok::shok:

Not in MY class it isn't! :naghty:

Ooo I didn't realize it was more common! I thought most people did it with their heels raised especially if coming from a more Egyptian background...I was taught to keep the feet flat from day one though...only after watching videos and being told by an Egyptian teacher to use my heels did I realize that some people do it with their heels.