Gothic Belly dance talk

[goddessyasaman]

I just wanted to talk about Gothic Belly dance, I know a lot of Belly dancer don't care for fuse styles but I have always loved when people are creative, and Gothic Belly dance is one of those I Found it to be very beautiful and different,(I myself have been called this) I am Goth and have always been when I got into Belly dance at the age of 12 turkish cabarate style drew me in so thats what I first studied, then my passion grew for more so I sudied all different styles When I came across Gothic Belly dance I fell in love even more.

I love the Makeup (Duh I guess I would :lol: )
The costumes are just awsome, I love all the different ones.
Oh and the hair styles as well.


I would like to her talk about how you like it or don't and why or even video post.

here is a video I love of Sashi doing a Gothis Belly dance performance...


YouTube - Gothic bellydance

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I like gothic bellydance - I've seen some very beautiful and very creative dancers do some wonderful performances.

But I don't like it when they call it Middle Eastern Dance. It's okay to call it bellydance but I doubt there is any Middle Eastern-Mediterranean individual alive who would disagree with me.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Taletha does beautiful Gothic Bellydance.

She avoids all the unneeded dramatics and theatrics and just really pulls so much out of the music.

YouTube - Taletha's Channel

 

[goddessyasaman]

Taletha does beautiful Gothic Bellydance.

She avoids all the unneeded dramatics and theatrics and just really pulls so much out of the music.

YouTube - Taletha's Channel

That was a good performance, I like the music she used, I love that song.

 

[Elfie]

I think some Gothic dancers are so wonderful to watch; very creative and innovative and their movements (meaning how they use each move) are unique to their style. But, I also see that many, many dancers have just copy-catted what others do and call it Gothic belly dance. Costuming, movements.... many copy-cats running around. I think every belly dancer should bring something personal to her dance. Something that makes it hers. With Gothic belly dancers, I see too many who use the exact same types of costuming choices.

I think maybe articles like this one are the reason why there isn't more uniqueness to the way Gothic Belly Dancers dress and do their make up. I'm not saying that article states that all dancers must dress this way, but the "essentials" list leaves little rom for creativity. Personally, I think a Gothic Belly Dancer has more to do with the dancers expression of the dance than what she wears. I could wear pastel pink and still look goth when I dance. I have that look about me.

I think, though, that there is more variety in costuming in other styles. I like how Turkish dancers and Egyptian dancers can basically wear whatever they like so long as it fits the dance style. With Gothic dancers, there isn't so much freedom as even that. I'd like to see Gothic dancers be more adventurous with their costume choices. Black and fishnets and corsets are all fine and good, but after the fifth dancer, they start blurring together and look all the same.

Maybe I just need to watch Gothic Dancers more widely. The videos I've found, though, everything is so similar it's not like I have to watch them all unless I want to see what music choices they made.

 

[LadyLoba]

Some questions..

This is an interesting discussion...and one that will be all learning for me, as I honestly know nothing about gothic belly dance. When I was in college (1994-1998) most of my friends were into the gothic subculture, but I never heard of gothic belly dance until I started researching styles this year.

Did gothic belly dance grow from the same music scene as the overall gothic subculture? If I remember correctly, the very beginning occurred when Peter Murphy of the band Bauhaus came onstage in vampire makeup to sing "Bela Lugosi's Dead."

Or was there "gothic belly dance" before you saw people identifying as goth in everyday life?

And do those of you who perform gothic belly dance find that it leans more toward cabaret in terms of style and mood...or is it more like tribal style?

 

[Yame]

I think some Gothic dancers are so wonderful to watch; very creative and innovative and their movements (meaning how they use each move) are unique to their style. But, I also see that many, many dancers have just copy-catted what others do and call it Gothic belly dance. Costuming, movements.... many copy-cats running around. I think every belly dancer should bring something personal to her dance. Something that makes it hers. With Gothic belly dancers, I see too many who use the exact same types of costuming choices.

I think maybe articles like this one are the reason why there isn't more uniqueness to the way Gothic Belly Dancers dress and do their make up. I'm not saying that article states that all dancers must dress this way, but the "essentials" list leaves little rom for creativity. Personally, I think a Gothic Belly Dancer has more to do with the dancers expression of the dance than what she wears. I could wear pastel pink and still look goth when I dance. I have that look about me.

I think, though, that there is more variety in costuming in other styles. I like how Turkish dancers and Egyptian dancers can basically wear whatever they like so long as it fits the dance style. With Gothic dancers, there isn't so much freedom as even that. I'd like to see Gothic dancers be more adventurous with their costume choices. Black and fishnets and corsets are all fine and good, but after the fifth dancer, they start blurring together and look all the same.

Maybe I just need to watch Gothic Dancers more widely. The videos I've found, though, everything is so similar it's not like I have to watch them all unless I want to see what music choices they made.

The problem with that is that the only thing that really separates this so-called gothic belly dance from other styles really is what the dancer wears. Take the clothes away and there really is no such thing as gothic belly dance.

Sure, some dancers will say it's the attitude... there's a little bit of that. Or maybe it's the music. There's a little bit of that. But mostly, it's the clothes and whether or not the dancer identifies herself with gothic subculture outside of belly dance.

What I am saying is that there is no specific way of moving, and responding to music that is unique to gothic belly dance and that separates it from other styles. There is no movement vocabulary that is gothic. There is no tradition of gothic music that is used for belly dance, aside from whatever each individual dancer wants to use. Gothic belly dancers come from all different kinds of belly dance backgrounds... whether it's tribal fusion or ATS, American Cabaret, or a Middle Eastern style, the only thing they all have in common is that they all self-identify as gothic outside of belly dance.

As such, I do not recognize gothic belly dance as a separate style of belly dance. I do appreciate the work of a variety of self-proclaimed gothic belly dancers, and I think it's a valid form of self-expression and entertainment, but it is not its own style.

The way it appears to me is that gothic belly dance came about out of the necessity for gothic people who took up belly dancing to perform belly dance while still being themselves. In the lenient environment that is the belly dance community in the US, where fusion and innovation are encouraged, it became possible to put a dark twist on belly dance and call it a new style, without actually having to create and establish a new style. I don't know if this would have been possible in another dance form or in another place... if I put on my fishnets, PVC skirt, and heavy makeup and run to the nearest salsa club, will I be dancing "gothic salsa?" What if I do the same steps to completely different music? Gothic salsa yet? What if I do completely steps to completely different music? What am I doing now?

 

[goddessyasaman]

Here is a link for those of you who would like to know a bit more about "Gothic Belly dance" or as it is sometime called "Raks Gothique".

What is Gothic Belly Dance - The Complete FAQ


If you go to page 4 on this link it will explain the style of this belly dance.

 

[Darshiva]

When I performed at tasmed last year people complimented my gothic bellydance performance. It certainly wasn't my intention to be called that - the costume was black (aside from the bra & belt) because it helped define the wing shapes. I certainly added a lot of drama to the piece, but that's because I like playing with the audience & was trying to find a new way to make people stay interested past the very long intro.

I think that gothic style is in the perception. In my case huge drama + black costume = gothic bellydance.

 

[Belly Love]

As a Christian, I'm not comfortable with Goth anything- it comes across as very dark/sinister & depressing to me. I will admit though, other than the fashion and the tone, I know nothing about the lifestyle.

When it comes to the bd side of it, I find that there tends to be a lot of theatrics in Goth performances, which I'm not a fan of (Goth or otherwise).

I view bd as something cheerful/happy and Goth seems to be the exact opposite.

 

[Amulya]

I wrote this in 2006, when the first Gothic belly dance DVD came out:
Amulya reviews a goth DVD for the Gilded Serpent
(the editing is terrible LOL, they gave belly dance a capital 'B'!)

At the time I wrote that there were a lot of discussions on belly dance forums about Gothic belly dance. There was one on here as well, but that got lost when the old forum got lost

Here is a forum dedicated to this dance form only:
Gothic Belly Dance - tribe.net

I agree with Darshiva that Gothic style is in the perception. I have a Gothic belly dance costume as well, I used it in a show where it suited the theme of the show. The dancing was more dramatic and there was acting in it as well.

I wouldn't see it as a whole different dancing style but more like some off-shoot thing. Not all Gothic belly dancers do strictly tribal fusion, some use a more cabaret style (I think there was a cabaret style dancer on that DVD). So yes, very confusing
ETA: costuming is also very varied and confusing!

Looking forward to more input

 

[goddessyasaman]

As a Christian, I'm not comfortable with Goth anything- it comes across as very dark/sinister & depressing to me. I will admit though, other than the fashion and the tone, I know nothing about the lifestyle.

When it comes to the bd side of it, I find that there tends to be a lot of theatrics in Goth performances, which I'm not a fan of (Goth or otherwise).

I view bd as something cheerful/happy and Goth seems to be the exact opposite.

I see it in a different light because I am Christian, and I am a goth chick, who is a belly dancer and I have studied goth belly dance along with others, I think the theatrics bring it a great expression in the art world, but I have always been into the art world as I am a painter and I sing opera as well. As far as Goth having to do with depressing you are not alone in this thinking but Goth is not emo just to let ya know as people get the two mixed up, not that emo should be called a style when it's meaning comes from emotional rock, but it is these day and emo is far from a goth.

Belly dance can be many things when performing, Cabaret style is like a celebration when dancing, if you change to Tribal fusion the feel of the style will change as well so all styles have a different feel and the same goes for goth belly dance.

But I know a lot of people out there don't understand goth people or don't care to and think they can say how they are because of how they look.

It's not that many pro Goth Belly dancers out there I guess no shock there

 

[Erik]

But I know a lot of people out there don't understand goth people or don't care to and think they can say how they are because of how they look.

Goddessyasaman, there are some Christians in my area who perceive goths as evil, and if they saw you wearing your goth clothing, makeup, bat necklace, skeleton earrings, etc, they would instantly judge you. I am a Christian too, and although most of us find the goth subculture puzzling, we don't see it as necessarily indicative of maladjustment.

When Ebenezer Scrooge tells the Ghost of Christmas Present to cover up the two scary little children, that is a typical reaction. For whatever it's worth, I simply see goths as reacting atypically, but for all I know they may be a lot happier on the inside than people who go around smiling all the time.

As for Gothic belly dance, I'll confess that I hated it at first. Same with Tribal. Both were gloomy and depressing to me, but as I learned more my attitude changed. Although I'm not really a fan, I'd rather you dance Gothic with a whole heart than any other style with only half a heart.

 

[goddessyasaman]

Goddessyasaman, there are some Christians in my area who perceive goths as evil, and if they saw you wearing your goth clothing, makeup, bat necklace, skeleton earrings, etc, they would instantly judge you. I am a Christian too, and although most of us find the goth subculture puzzling, we don't see it as necessarily indicative of maladjustment.

When Ebenezer Scrooge tells the Ghost of Christmas Present to cover up the two scary little children, that is a typical reaction. For whatever it's worth, I simply see goths as reacting atypically, but for all I know they may be a lot happier on the inside than people who go around smiling all the time.

As for Gothic belly dance, I'll confess that I hated it at first. Same with Tribal. Both were gloomy and depressing to me, but as I learned more my attitude changed. Although I'm not really a fan, I'd rather you dance Gothic with a whole heart than any other style with only half a heart.

Yes I would say so, I would not say a Goth person was unhappy just because they are goth I have known and know many who are Happy, me being one , But this is how people will see them as this is the way of the world. But It's ok, I have the love of god so I have never cared for what people think of me . I hope many goth people feel this way, be who you are no matter what people think.

 

[Sara]

Heylo!

I remember when I was still a newbie here I posted a forum on gothic belly dance. Back then I found the concept hard to understand. I wasn't entirely convinced that it was a style I would enjoy.

It is not something I would actively do (at this stage of my life anyways, you never know..) but now I can enjoy and appreciate the performances. There is a lot of creativity in it and stage presence. I think one aim of the style is to create an atmospere, or dance out a story.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Did gothic belly dance grow from the same music scene as the overall gothic subculture? If I remember correctly, the very beginning occurred when Peter Murphy of the band Bauhaus came onstage in vampire makeup to sing "Bela Lugosi's Dead."

Or was there "gothic belly dance" before you saw people identifying as goth in everyday life?

In the 80s, there were nightclubs and danceclubs that mostly played the kind of music you would probably recognize as "Goth" -- the music sort of grew out of the UK punk movement supposedly as early as 1970, but I don't think it REALLY hit mainstream in the US that early.

FASHION AND CULTURE:
This music was happening before you saw a lot of BLACK in fashion and well before the "grunge" look, with its buckles and grommets, and the somewhat Edwardian revival which arguably happened in the early 90s and led to the "steampunk" fashion so trendy right now.

In the clubs in Atlanta, you could see self-identified "Punk" fashions, as well as people gravitating more towards a sort of vampire look (in 1985 Anne Rice had just released The Vampire Lestat, and Chris Sarandon had played the uber-sexy and appearing normal vampire "Jerry" in Fright Night.) The fashion at that time seemed to be a lot of black, but that was kind of the thing in the punk clubs too. (Standard 1980s runway fashion was bright bright colors, and the "alternative" set went against that.) Goth fashion a la 1984 was less grunge and more ghoul. It wasn't all that unusual to see white base makeup with black lipstick, but it was equally not that unusual to see bright pink hair on women that looked as if it was cut with a waffle iron, combined with a Navy pea-coat or appropriately militaristic outerwear.

MUSIC:
The DJs in those clubs seemed to be deliberately eschewing the trendy "heavy metal" and screaming punk sound for a more simple and moody electronic sound that would later be known as early Goth music. (Although the genre is really all over the place now and it's practically impossible to define goth music anymore.) Even then you had the occult- or pagan-influenced music, the J.G. Ballard influenced music, the neo-Romantic music embracing the spirit of Percy Shelley, the Robert Anton Wilson-inspired music (Hail Eris! FNORD), and a million more. In light of all the moody ridiculous stuff labeled as goth today, it's hard to recognize that at one time Iggy Pop was considered Goth. Or even Bauhaus!

Some argued that the "theme" in Goth music was "darkness." It got written up a lot in the music magazines I was reading, and I always wondered what was so "dark" about it, but our family conversations over dinner read pretty much like a Nick Cave discography, so I guess if you were brought up with fluffy bunnies and sugarplums dancing in your head you might be find some of the sentiments disturbing. That could also be my life experience and jaded old age kicking in...

DANCING:
As to the dancing -- I can attest that yes, there was a "Goth dance style" even as far back as 1984. It was probably a reaction to the music. When you bop around to the 80s pop music, you tend to dance differently than when you're responding to heavy metal or country. Club dancing to Siouxsie and Iggy and Robert Smith gives a different "vibe." BUT -- that was then and this is now. Regular club dancing in the 80s does not resemble regular club dancing now. I think a lot of the significators of "Goth dance" in 1982 have just been blended into our regular dancing in 2012. So is there a significantly different "Goth Dance Style" today? I don't see it, but again, I think it bears a lot more in common with "normal" club dancing today than it did 30 years ago.


Gothic belly dance is a recent creation of dancers who wanted to do "belly dance" movements to Goth music. Some say it's a costuming choice or a sense of theatrics, but I disagree with that because I should be able to recognize and appreciate a great Goth dance piece with the dancer in jeans. If you have to rely on costume and set dressing and posing and theatrics, you probably need to spend more time in class rather than at the sewing machine. (I am aware that this opinion has made me unpopular among some of the younger "goth bellydancers" but "The emperor's new clothes" has always been my favorite story.)

Did that moody, theatrical belly dance style exist before said "Gothic Belly Dancers" were born? Hell yes. Two words: Elena Lentini.

Was Elena wearing pvc and dancing to Sisters of Mercy? No, but she could dance a piece with a thousand times more mood, magic, and magistry than any so-called "goth belly dancer" today. Even Taletha, who I adore, recognizes the old masters. Was it Goth? It had the emotional elements, but since it wasn't danced to Goth music, I wouldn't categorize it as Goth. Neither would Elena.

And do those of you who perform gothic belly dance find that it leans more toward cabaret in terms of style and mood...or is it more like tribal style?

I think when you say you're going to do Gothic bellydance, there is an audience expectation that you're going to be a little "moody" in appearance, ya know? That has TYPICALLY been actualized through a more "tribal" approach, but there have been stand-out performances that don't use the tribal setup. When I do it (not much any more) I take a more "cab" approach (maybe even the Beledi approach) combined with a lot of Modern dance technique. I refuse to wear the Victorian grandmother wardrobe because I think it's ridiculous and draws attention away from the dance, but that's a personal decision.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

The problem with that is that the only thing that really separates this so-called gothic belly dance from other styles really is what the dancer wears. Take the clothes away and there really is no such thing as gothic belly dance.

Sure, some dancers will say it's the attitude... there's a little bit of that. Or maybe it's the music. There's a little bit of that. But mostly, it's the clothes and whether or not the dancer identifies herself with gothic subculture outside of belly dance.

What's the difference between Beledi and Sharqi? I mean a little bit of music, because beledi music has a different feel, but mostly it's the attitude and the emotional expression of the music, right?

That's how Gothic BD SHOULD be, but a lot of times it's not. You are exactly right when you say that it seems to be about the costume or subculture, and I really think that is doing the dancers themselves no good.

What I am saying is that there is no specific way of moving, and responding to music that is unique to gothic belly dance and that separates it from other styles. There is no movement vocabulary that is gothic. There is no tradition of gothic music that is used for belly dance, aside from whatever each individual dancer wants to use. Gothic belly dancers come from all different kinds of belly dance backgrounds... whether it's tribal fusion or ATS, American Cabaret, or a Middle Eastern style, the only thing they all have in common is that they all self-identify as gothic outside of belly dance.

Not even that -- you have a lot of more theatrical dancers who explore a Goth piece because they want to and not because their subculture compels them to. Take most of World Dance New York's instructors. I'm not sure how many of them would self-identify as Goth, but many of them can pull off a really amazing Goth performance (ANASMA!!!! )

As such, I do not recognize gothic belly dance as a separate style of belly dance. I do appreciate the work of a variety of self-proclaimed gothic belly dancers, and I think it's a valid form of self-expression and entertainment, but it is not its own style.

Maybe a better term would be "flavor" since we're using that word to describe the "essence" or "influence" from another dance form (like Spanish flavored dance).

In the lenient environment that is the belly dance community in the US, where fusion and innovation are encouraged, it became possible to put a dark twist on belly dance and call it a new style, without actually having to create and establish a new style.

But what is the "dark twist" ? I mean, the more I learn of Egyptian music, good lord it's more Goth than the entire Switchblade Symphony! There is Flamenco and Roma music that would cause a Goth to run away screaming.

As the American culture embraces and addresses more of the elements of that were once considered solely the realm of the "Gothic," the separation of this subculture and the culture grows thinner and thinner. Yet the dress and costume grows more and more elaborate.

If the dark twist is looking like a Gibson Girl, I'm not subscribing.

I don't know if this would have been possible in another dance form or in another place... if I put on my fishnets, PVC skirt, and heavy makeup and run to the nearest salsa club, will I be dancing "gothic salsa?" What if I do the same steps to completely different music? Gothic salsa yet? What if I do completely steps to completely different music? What am I doing now?

Don't be silly. Gothic Salsa? Everybody knows Gothic Tango is where it's at:

YouTube - Lance and Lacey Gothic Tango

 

[Amulya]

Rep for you Aziyade! Thanks for the extensive post

Did that moody, theatrical belly dance style exist before said "Gothic Belly Dancers" were born? Hell yes. Two words: Elena Lentini.

I have seen her dance and can't recall it as having a goth feel, but yes very dramatic. I didn't know much about goth culture at that time, so that wouldn't have helped to recognize it!
Does she still perform? I haven't heard about her for a long time, but she does have a web site.

Here is the only clip I could find of her:

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

To be fair, Elena would not be categorized as Goth. But the emotion and theatricality that Goths say are part of GBD is very much alive in Elena.

That's a good clip, but she has better ones. Unfortunately almost all the footage I have of her is bootleg. She does still teach and dance.

 

[goddessyasaman]

I wonder if Goth Belly dance would have had a shimmy of it's own or a traveling move named for it, would dancers then say it's a style and not just a different dressed Belly dancer. I have to wonder what the moves would have been, but then the moves would maybe be not belly dance enough and no one would like it still, kind of like a lot of dancers feel about Hip Hop belly dance :think: it's a lot to think about when you create a sub dance style You have to make it stand out so giving it it's own moves along with basics would be for the best so no one could say that it's not all that different I guess at least it would be different enough.:think: