Personally I tend not to like anything labeled belly dance fusion because it usually looks like whatever it is fused with. If someone is doing fusion, call it fusion without the bellydance word in the label as it is two dances fused. I've danced at fusion shows but I danced my usual cab style. At a show on dark fairy tales I did the little match girl and did the vision using caberet style. It worked and I was complemented later.
The like and Dislike of Fusion Belly dance
- Thread starter goddessyasaman
- Start date
jenc
New member
I don't mind seeing a bit of fusion at a hafla - but there is usually more fusion than traditional and some of it is truly "thought-provoking". I don't want to see someone doing crotch thrusts towards the audience wearing a hannibal lectur mask. I don't want to see aging ladies in skimpy costumes dancibg to james bond, or "don't You Wish Your girlfriend was Hot Like Me!" (I'm 62 - so I can say that). for most of the fusion I have seen, it was clearly an easier option than ME (with the possibleexception of Hannibal) with the dancers deluding themselves that they were being innovative and edgy. for me, most of it is WTF or boring
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
I find more and more that when I'm interested in a bellydance event, I look to see who will be dancing and/or who will be attending because a huge amount of dancers are fushion and not the original or classic style. I really think in the interest of specificity, the adjective to the dance should also be included as the word "bellydance" is becoming pretty generic for just about anything that has many bellydance moves but is not necessarily bellydance as I once believed it was.
Kashmir
New member
My shows have always been straight belly dance and folkloric - the exception being sometimes I get to do one fusion item 'cos I'm the teacher - and I know its fusion and it's clearly labelled as such.
Until a few years ago, all shows around here would be belly dance or folkloric. In fact the biggest show ever - open to and well supported by the general public - where we were turning people away at 600 people - was straight belly dance and folkloric. (I know it was general public - not dancers -and was well received as I used it for research in my dance diploma and surveyed a number of members of the audience)
But I can understand you not wanting to go to shows or workshops if there isn't any Tribal or Fusion, as I have the opposite response. The big show above was part of our national organization's festival. As the committe changed, the focus shifted to Tribal and Fusion. I attended one a while back and found few if any straight belly dance workshops - other than baby basic - and no folkloric. The show, which was very long, had only a couple of straight belly dance items. And here's the kicker. Even though it was held in a much larger city, the audience was smaller and seemed to be all dancers and their friends and family. I have not bothered to attend any more festivals.
goddessyasaman
New member
you had 4 points here... my reply to each in order as you stated them.
1.Your opinion.
2-3. This I am aware of (No lessons needed here), what I was saying is that a audience would see a Tribal fusion belly dancer or some other fusion style and Identify it as Belly dance even if some of us dancer would not like them to. And then if the group that started whatever fusion did not call it "Blank fusion belly dance" and named it "blank" people would then still think it's belly dance with or without the music of the middle east, to them it would be Belly dance with a different name. And then we would have the issue with people saying aren't they just belly dancing and calling it something else.
4.Yet again opinion, to you they are nolonger belly dancing because you feel that they are not belly dancing, I can not just go on someones opinion I need facts, I'm not going to say that a pro dancer (example) Rachel Brice is not Belly dancing because her style is Tribal Fusion and yes she does dance belly dance well with middle eastern music and non-middle eastern music.
I know we won't agree but Talking is what we are here for.
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Kashmir
New member
Actually any Egyptians I have talked to about this have been actually much ruder than anyone on this forum when it comes to Tribal - let along any of the Tribal Fusions. In brief, they don't like the style of dance and they cannot understand why anyone would call it "belly dance".
Actually - no. Almost all the "belly dance" moves I learnt in Modern Jazz. These moves are not specific to belly dance. People who see them as only belly dance just have a limited exposure to dance in general - and are misled by others who insist on "this is a belly dance move".
What makes it belly dance instead of jazz is the music, the approach - and the hands
goddessyasaman
New member
Actually any Egyptians I have talked to about this have been actually much ruder than anyone on this forum when it comes to Tribal - let along any of the Tribal Fusions. In brief, they don't like the style of dance and they cannot understand why anyone would call it "belly dance".
Actually - no. Almost all the "belly dance" moves I learnt in Modern Jazz. These moves are not specific to belly dance. People who see them as only belly dance just have a limited exposure to dance in general - and are misled by others who insist on "this is a belly dance move".
What makes it belly dance instead of jazz is the music, the approach - and the hands
Yes a select few will not add up to a country, I'm sure there will be people from egypt and other parts of the middle east since that is just a small part that may not even want people of other races to dance there cultures dance, I have heard this as well from family in the middle east but what a few feel is like I said not a country.
even so like your example with Jazz, people are not vast in art or thought for that matter, but that is one group that could have very well used middle eastern dance moves in there styles creation I'm not sure I don't dance Jazz never had an interest in it but I do know some histroy on the Jazz world as I do sing Jazz, but in a lot of other dance styles you will move your hips and or tourso, but Tribal fusion for one has not been far enough removed to become a new style of dance, I'm not saying that it should not, saying that it would be very hard to do so at this point.
on another note, To be honest maybe Gothic belly dance which is a fusion style should just drop belly dance like everyone has said Name it something else and then this style of dance could become a part of the art world which I fear will never happen with Belly dance in a whole (not that everyone wants it to) Goth (Belly :naghty
dance has a very artistic feel to it Telling a story as you dance so that could work. Food for thought.
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Aniseteph
New member
The "belly dance is ours and you shouldn't do it" argument (aka white/black chicks can't belly dance ) is a completely separate issue to some people from the ME looking at some aspects of globalised belly dance and what gets in under the bellydance umbrella and thinking "naah, you've got it all wrong".
I certainly have sat at haflas thinking that, and it's not even part of my culture. If it wasn't for forums like this I would feel like a very lonely bunny indeed.
It's too easy to pick out the exotic costumes, "moves", performing, and self-expression aspects of belly dance, and discard the things that take time and study and practise to get a feel for. And the belly dance community enables if not outright encourages it, IMO.
To me (yes, just an opinion) the core and heart and soul of belly dance is in those things that take a while, not in pick 'n' mix dressing up and doing the moves to Western music 'cos it's such fun.
(I need a special font for that last fun. Sarcasm blended with dull dull dull..)
) is a completely separate issue to some people from the ME looking at some aspects of globalised belly dance and what gets in under the bellydance umbrella and thinking "naah, you've got it all wrong".I certainly have sat at haflas thinking that, and it's not even part of my culture. If it wasn't for forums like this I would feel like a very lonely bunny indeed.
It's too easy to pick out the exotic costumes, "moves", performing, and self-expression aspects of belly dance, and discard the things that take time and study and practise to get a feel for. And the belly dance community enables if not outright encourages it, IMO.
To me (yes, just an opinion) the core and heart and soul of belly dance is in those things that take a while, not in pick 'n' mix dressing up and doing the moves to Western music 'cos it's such fun.
(I need a special font for that last fun. Sarcasm blended with dull dull dull..)
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shiradotnet
Well-known member
Ah, this raises a different issue - ie, the question of "Who is the audience?"
In my experience, most cities have difficulty attracting the general public to attend belly dance shows because the bulk of the performers are beginner or intermediate level of performers, and NOT advanced/professional. Although the friends and families of students are happy to come support them, the general public generally prefers to see only professional-quality shows.
Many belly dance organizers don't understand this. They'll promote to the general public haflas whose primary purpose is to provide experience to student performers, and that's a BIG MISTAKE. If most of the performers will be students, then the hafla should be promoted only to people who actually know and love the students.
If a show is going to be promoted to the general public, it's important that the performers be of a professional level of quality. They don't necessarily need to be people who do the professional gigs, but they should be as skilled as those who do.
I actually think it's great for a show to offer a mix of styles: some folkloric, some Turkish Oriental, some Egyptian Oriental, some ATS, a couple of tribal fusion, etc. The key for me is that if it's being advertised as a 'belly dance" show there should be at least half the acts representative of something that Middle Eastern people would recognize as coming from their part of the world. If the organizer doesn't want to dedicate at least half the acts to Turkish/Lebanese/Egyptian Oriental and folkloric, then instead of calling it a belly dance show call it a "world dance" show. It's back to that truth in labeling thing.
I think featuring a balance of different dance styles is nice for several reasons. There's the reason you gave, which is a valid one. Another reason is that diversity can make a show more interesting for everyone, as it causes shifting energy levels, variety of costume types, and so on. I've seen belly dance shows that included (for a change of pace) a performer doing traditional Korean dance or classical dance from India. These were interesting because they "cleansed the palette" for the audience.
lilith71
New member
Oh My!:shok::shok::lol: I would not like to see that either! I got one even better. I saw a man in a clown suit, performing some really awful Mime/Fusion piece, recently! Lol....Awful,awful.....I think there is terrible Fusion, and wonderful Fusion. It's all a matter of people's tastes. I just don't like feeling like the majority of us, Fusion friendly people, ALL have the same taste, and ALL think bad Fusion is good. Does this make sense? Just as I'm sure you Purists can equally tell good from bad and have different tastes.
lilith71
New member
Yes,Yes! These are the shows I enjoy attending the most! Ones with Variety! A show where all is included. I also have no problem labeling Fusion/Tribal, separately. It seems most Fusion/Tribal people I know, understand and respect this....But how do you promote a show/venue with half pure Bellydance and half Tribal/Fusion? Do you label the whole show as World Fusion or put it all under the Bellydance umbrella? Would the ticket buyers know what World Fusion meant?
lilith71
New member
Kashmir
New member
Modern Jazz - the dance - isn't really directly related to Jazz music or singing. More the timing. It was created by Denishawn (Ruth St Denis and Ted Shawn) in the 1920s. It blended dance elements from east Indian, South American, and Afro-Arab cultures. The later is credited mainly to Jack Cole.
From then a number of dancers - like Bob Fosse - developed it into what it is today. Ironically, I left my jazz class when it started bringing in "too much" hip hop fusion
Kashmir
New member
Yep - but 4 minutes out of a 2 hour show - not 1 hour and 56 minutes of fusion and one little belly dance item
I tend to work them in as dream sequences or nightmares or a misplaced person arriving totally out of place - ie they are clearly not belly dance. And of the remaining belly dance half would be accurate folklore
Aniseteph
New member
If they are mostly dancers and friends and family I think they could work it out - better than slapping the bellydance label on the lot and encouraging the idea that anything you care to throw a few hip drops into is all some kind of belly dance. Because that is a self-fulfilling prophecy and we are already there - these days I expect to see mostly WTFery and am pleasantly surprised when I don't. WTFery is the norm really.
Big festival shows I go by what the workshops are and who is teaching - a little fusion is variety and interesting to see the differences, pretty much all fusion is not my cup of tea (or variety, come to think of it).
(he he he, I've been spending too much time on Regretsy and in my head a lot of fusion-lite and comedy is going to be labelled Whimsicle ******* fusion. The parallels with real craft versus just sticking stuff to other stuff are striking.)
goddessyasaman
New member
Modern Jazz - the dance - isn't really directly related to Jazz music or singing. More the timing. It was created by Denishawn (Ruth St Denis and Ted Shawn) in the 1920s. It blended dance elements from east Indian, South American, and Afro-Arab cultures. The later is credited mainly to Jack Cole.
From then a number of dancers - like Bob Fosse - developed it into what it is today. Ironically, I left my jazz class when it started bringing in "too much" hip hop fusion
Yes like I had said I have studied some of jazz dance history, was using jazz music as to say the part of jazz I am into
, never got into the dance. to each thier own , but yea it seems like everyone fuses at some point in time.
lilith71
New member
Well.. this thread has pretty interesting food for thought Goddessyasaman! I can see and understand the fear/dislike of Fusion taking over and polluting Bellydance until there is nothing left. I also LOVE good ATS/TRibal/Fusion. I have to say that it is a relief not to have to argue points at shows/hafla's and only on here where it is safe to do so.
shiradotnet
Well-known member
I think it depends on the specific tribal fusion performance. You're right that SOME fusion performances might be viewed by the audience as belly dance even though they're not. However, I think others would be quite clear, even to uneducated audiences.
One issue is that SOME tribal fusion dancers do a variety of dance styles, not just belly dance - performances that have nothing recognizable as belly dance at all. For example, I've seen Unmata performances that were pure hiphop, and I believe that Unmata knew it was hiphop, not belly dance, when they created them. It's okay, since they were performing in an environment that was accepting of that decision. But a member of the general public seeing Unmata do hiphop in crop tops and Melodia pants probably wouldn't call that belly dance.
shiradotnet
Well-known member
One thing that disappoints me a great deal is that many people are teaching fusion right from the start in beginner-level classes that are advertised as "belly dancing". I believe that students at the beginner level should be taught using Middle Eastern music and a Middle Eastern aesthetic. Even if the teacher personally enjoys performing fusion pieces at haflas and such, the beginner classroom should still stay true to the original Oriental dance.
After all, how else will students learn belly dance itself? How will they reach a point where they can thoughtfully create dances of their own if they don't start their education with actual belly dancing?
If a teacher doesn't want to teach Middle Eastern dance using Middle Eastern music, then she shouldn't call her classes "belly dance". She should call them something like "fusion dance theater" and use marketing language such as "Learn to express yourself using dance movements from a variety of cultures."
I've been known to dress up as a black cat and perform to music by an Italian composer, but I don't call it "belly dance" when I do, and I certainly wouldn't teach that particular fusion to my beginning belly dance students.
After all, how else will students learn belly dance itself? How will they reach a point where they can thoughtfully create dances of their own if they don't start their education with actual belly dancing?
If a teacher doesn't want to teach Middle Eastern dance using Middle Eastern music, then she shouldn't call her classes "belly dance". She should call them something like "fusion dance theater" and use marketing language such as "Learn to express yourself using dance movements from a variety of cultures."
I've been known to dress up as a black cat and perform to music by an Italian composer, but I don't call it "belly dance" when I do, and I certainly wouldn't teach that particular fusion to my beginning belly dance students.