the image of a belly dancer

[dreamthief666]

this saturday I did a gram for a family reunion/wedding celebration/ luau party for some VERY southern people (bluegrass and unhealthy food! it felt like home lol). they absolutely loved it and men and women both gave me tips (i made quite a bit of money!!). however, some tried to put money in my bra or in the butt part of my belt. one lady even said "i just have to admire those!" as she tried to put a handful of freaking quarters in my bra. physically that wouldn't even work, and it's really inappropriate! then when i was leaving to go get changed, the lady i was with was following me with all my money in her hands and someone asked, "Are you her pimp?" and she just looked at her and snorted, "No, I'm her bodyguard."

pimp? pimp?!!!! what the hell?! did i look like a hooker?! no, i looked like a princess rotest:

maybe you should add a sword or snake dance that should keep thier hands to themselves

 

[Freddie]

maybe you should add a sword or snake dance that should keep thier hands to themselves

:lol::lol:

 

[Harry]

Having read the previous posts on this thread, I would add that educating the public, in general, away from the perception of belly dance being slaves, ladies of ill repute, etc., is a long process. However, many individuals (myself included) endeavor to assist in projecting the art aspect. But, even we receive some static. I was recently called a pervert because I support the idea that belly dance is art, and not a front for immoral acts.

On the other hand (positive close), progress is being made. There are many practitioners and supporters of the art here, and in other groups, that are pursuing, whether as full-time vocation, a means of physical fitness, or just fun, this beautiful art. Exchanging ideas of how to continue projecting all positive aspects will continue to build on progress already made.

 

[Andrea Deagon]

I have to pipe up with a historical perspective on the slavery thing. The kind of slavery we had in the US and that was familiar in Europe from Greece and Rome was different in many ways from the slavery that was practiced in the Ottoman Empire, which is the dominant souce for the harem fantasy due to the very specific circumstances of the Ottoman Sultan's harem. Western visitors to Turkey in the 18th-19th century were constantly commenting on how bold and forward the slaves were -- one man commented that the slaves would take offense if you didn't greet them and shake their hand. Slaves had rights that went well beyond those we would expect from the systems we know best, perhaps even the right not to be sold without their consent, and the child of a slave and a free person was considered free. There were many kinds of non-free status, in the sense of having some choices about your lives made by others, and slavery was only one of them.

From the 15th century on, IIRC, the harem of the Ottoman Sultan was indeed staffed entirely by slaves, and this included his consorts. And eunuchs served as guards and stewards for the harem women when they wanted to accomplish something in the outside world. There were any number of different levels of status, and from what can be derived from actual historical sources, malmost all were administrative and had nothing to do with servicing the Sultan sexually. Leslie P. Pierce in her book on the Ottoman harem comments that it was more like a convent than anything else, in that the vast majority of the women who lived there were expected to be celibate; many of them, after fulfilling a number of years of service, might want to leave the harem, and would then be freed and married to husbands in the bureaucracy.

Among the the many women in the harem were those whose duties were primarily to perform music and/or dance. In the 19th century reminiscence of Leyla Hanimefendi, who was not in the harem but whose father was court physician and therefore she spent time with the ladies of the harem, comments that it was not considered suitable for women in positions of power such as the consort of the Sultan to engage in dancing. (I don't quite believe her though as she does tend to whitewash and sanitize a bit ... though see my post to follow this one.) So yeah, harem slaves danced for the Sultan. And in addition to a particularly refined belly dancing, they also performed such dazzling feats as the Rabbit Dance which involved, I kid you not, a lot of hopping ... :lol: (But see my next post, if I get a chance to do it tonight.)

And the persistent Western fantasy of White women in the Sultan's harem was actually based in fact, in that Circassians and Georgians would habitually sell young women to Turkish brokers, because of the potential that their doughters might have to live a more comfortable life and make a more fortunate marriage than they could hope for in their native poverty. On the other hand, West Africans typically did not sell their children for hope of gain, but some were enslaved through conquest and against their will. In either case, a promising young woman might be trained for potentially becoming a consort of the sultan.

Now maybe sex appeal had a lot to do with this, but elegance and refinement also played a role. Lady Mary Wortley Montagu in 1717 commented that although she was told that the women of the harem did play up to the Sultan, hoping to get his attention and favor, it was more like the way Western aristocrats would play up to the King. Typically, when women had real power in the harem, it was as the mother of a son, not the love slave of the Sultan, though the 2 things sometimes aligned themselves.

But of course, from the moment the Ottoman Harem became a topic of interest to Western travelers, it was assumed that the reason the Sultan surrounded himself with women was so that he could have a constantly changin sexual smorgasbord. Pierce reproduces a 16th century engraving that shows an enormously turbaned Sultan in various activities with a bevy of beautifiul women in attendance -- at one point they are dancing for him, though they seem to be playing "ring around the rosie" rather than belly dancing ... :lol:

In any case, the sad part is that the Western promoters of this fantasy from the 16th century on have not had the imagination to consider the possibility that all those women might have administrative rather than sexual purposes, or that for many, the harem was a temporary job, or that some women would have exercised power as the mother of a son whether or not they were the Sultan's current squeeze.

So the real question is, what is it about US that makes us crave a fantasy in which women are imprisoned, sexually exploited, or sexually rejected and frustrated, or in [permanent sexual competition to get a man?

 

[Kharmine]

There was a time when I hung out with goths, of which there are many subcategories. Many of those folks loved to dress up in provocative ways that evoked fetish and bondage sexuality

The whole "master and slave" thing in this context is provocative because it shrieks of arbitrary control, dominance and abuse. For a lot of goths, this speaks to the "dark side" of humanity which they believe everyone has and could enjoy under certain conditions.

Mind you, this kind of stuff has been around for, oh, since before Nero was doing the real thing. Just not usually in public.

What these folks were doing was, essentially, a rather sanitized and definitely glamorized public version of private sex play. But even if they carried it out for real in the bedroom, we (the audience of peers) were supposed to understand that no one actually "owned" another human being and the "slave" had as much control as the "master." They just had different roles to play.

Now, maybe the idea of this sort of "play-acting" makes us recoil because it seems like an insensitive parody of extreme human rights abuse. But others might see it as harmless fantasy stuff -- maybe not our cuppa, but not actually hurting anyone who isn't consenting, even pursuing, to being hurt.

(I gotta say, the "enjoyment" is probably reserved for those who have never actually suffered horrific rights abuse.)

The "harem girl" fantasy, IMHO, is the even more sanitized version of this fetish/bondage/master & slave thing -- the stereotypical costume is barely a nod, if that, to historical accuracy of any Middle Eastern culture.

At least in a performance setting (burlesque, exotic dance, etc.), no one really owns the fantasy harem girl and, in fact, she's getting what she wants so she's really at least as much in control as her "master" --or the audience.

The more disconnect people have between these fantasies and any actual culture or human rights abuse, of course, the less they realize how harmful it can be to confuse the two.

 

[khanjar]

The dark side you refer to with the goth culture, is correct, we all have a dark side, even the brightest lightest of us. The dark side refers to all the things you keep hidden from others, feelings,thoughts, insecurities, all the things you keep hidden away at the back of the mind. But keep the dark side and it can fester and leak into normal life and there become apparent as illnesses, depressions and mood problems, this I know from experience and as a result, I am in the process of weeding out my dark side, showing past insecurities the light of life and there they dissolve in the light.

But for those that engage in fantasy submission and domination, it is done between consenting adults with clear boundaries set in place, and whatever it is they do, they are fully aware of the risks. So that being said, this fantasy play between consenting adults, is a safe way of exposing the darkness in ourselves, and for learning about the self.

I know some people that call themselves slaves, consensual slaves,but it is not anything like what the Western world rid itself of some two hundred years ago, maybe from what has been said about Turkish Hareems, and the position of slaves in that society, modern day consensual slaves, are perhaps more like that, but with freedom available at any time by word of mouth.

Those that I know that call themselves slaves, I know what it means to them and what goes on, but it still leaves me feeling a little uneasy.

 

[bellydanceforum]

What i'm talking about is perpetuating the image of belly dance being a dance done by women to seduce or entice men.

Actually, I thought that was the purpose of Belly dancing in history. I keep keeping of the movie "The Ten Commandments" where the father brings out the dozen daughters, though they weren't bellydancing persee', but their dancing did serve a purpose to entice men to choose a bride.

And I have to say, with all intents and purposes, that belly dancing IS enticing to men to this day as well as arousing. Esp. when they come a little closer to you and put that scarf or kerchief around you. :clap:

 

[Aniseteph]

Actually, I thought that was the purpose of Belly dancing in history. I keep keeping of the movie "The Ten Commandments" where the father brings out the dozen daughters, though they weren't bellydancing persee', but their dancing did serve a purpose to entice men to choose a bride.

That's not what belly dance is about. Hollywood films just tell you about Hollywood's attitudes at the time, not about the real thing.

 

[Kashmir]

Actually, I thought that was the purpose of Belly dancing in history. I keep keeping of the movie "The Ten Commandments" where the father brings out the dozen daughters, though they weren't bellydancing persee', but their dancing did serve a purpose to entice men to choose a bride.

Actually, movies aren't history - they are made up :shok:

And I have to say, with all intents and purposes, that belly dancing IS enticing to men to this day as well as arousing. Esp. when they come a little closer to you and put that scarf or kerchief around you. :clap:

And nurses just exist to take their gear off - I've seen it! This nurse comes out and slowly unbuttons her blouse ....

 

[alosha]

Actually, movies aren't history - they are made up :shok:

And nurses just exist to take their gear off - I've seen it! This nurse comes out and slowly unbuttons her blouse ....

:clap::clap:

 

[kayshier]

Actually, movies aren't history - they are made up :shok:

And nurses just exist to take their gear off - I've seen it! This nurse comes out and slowly unbuttons her blouse ....

LMAO!!

Somehow i often wonder if the notion of enslavement, harem fantasy will ever be totally dispelled.
i asked a couple of my friends what they thought of when they heard about belly dance, and they all said basically the same thing..

sad.

 

[Kharmine]

Actually, I thought that was the purpose of Belly dancing in history. I keep keeping of the movie "The Ten Commandments" where the father brings out the dozen daughters, though they weren't bellydancing persee', but their dancing did serve a purpose to entice men to choose a bride.

And I have to say, with all intents and purposes, that belly dancing IS enticing to men to this day as well as arousing. Esp. when they come a little closer to you and put that scarf or kerchief around you. :clap:

Hey, I'll put everything on hold every Easter season just to see that wonderfully grand, corny, splendidly filmed old movie on TV -- but I've actually read the Biblical account, and I don't remember that scene, let alone a lot of others as portrayed in that move!

Yes, belly dancing can be enticing, it can be sexy and quite seductive -- but that's like saying sugar can be sweet!

Most of us are past the age when we enjoyed eating whole tablespoons of sugar just for the overwhelming, single-note sweetness of the taste. We want sugar today, it's usually mixed with other flavors to enhance the complete dish, not dominate it to the point your back teeth ache!

The point is: To focus on belly dance as being for male gratification -- whether in a public performance or private entertainment -- is just inaccurate.

And people tend to be generally vague on history in general so it's no surprise they may remember the most glamorous and/or titillating myths about "belly dance, " rather than the reality.

 

[bellydanceforum]

That's not what belly dance is about. Hollywood films just tell you about Hollywood's attitudes at the time, not about the real thing.

So what is the history of belly dance? What purpose did it serve when it first got its start?

 

[karena]

So what is the history of belly dance? What purpose did it serve when it first got its start?

If you do a search you'll find lots of threads discussing this (it is an often repeated topic), but this thread is about the image of the bellydancer.

 

[bellydanceforum]

I was wanting to know how does Pole Dancing compare. This is a new hobby that's catching on as well.

I mean, come on, it's belly dancing.....the main part of the body that is moving around is mostly the part that is the arousing body part visually anyhow.

 

[karena]

I was wanting to know how does Pole Dancing compare. This is a new hobby that's catching on as well.

I mean, come on, it's belly dancing.....the main part of the body that is moving around is mostly the part that is the arousing body part visually anyhow.

Again if you do a search what bellydance is and isn't is discussed frequently. This thread is about the image of the bellydancer.

 

[kayshier]

So the real question is, what is it about US that makes us crave a fantasy in which women are imprisoned, sexually exploited, or sexually rejected and frustrated, or in [permanent sexual competition to get a man?

this is a very good question. I think it is about domination and control really.
i also think its partially about fear of a woman's sexuality, and its power

and how that has been corrupted in many ways to be something feared, put in a box and hidden for shame, or displayed in a crude, base and animalistic fashion..Again the madonna/whore complex...

as to what motiviates the behaviour i think it is fear on the part of people who use all sorts of justification including biblical.

 

[kayshier]

I was wanting to know how does Pole Dancing compare. This is a new hobby that's catching on as well.

I mean, come on, it's belly dancing.....the main part of the body that is moving around is mostly the part that is the arousing body part visually anyhow.

Kharmine, i'm wondering if we have discovered what you were mentioning sometime ago in another thread?:think:

i don't think i'd feed this one...as a matter of fact i don't think anybody should feed this one..

 

[bellydanceforum]

Again if you do a search what bellydance is and isn't is discussed frequently. This thread is about the image of the bellydancer.

Yes, but I think the topic is tied together somehow. I would say the purpose of belly dancing would tie into the image of the belly dancer.

 

[Kharmine]

Yes, but I think the topic is tied together somehow. I would say the purpose of belly dancing would tie into the image of the belly dancer.

Friend, we're not discussing the "purpose" of belly dancing. It does tie in, but we have all opinions as to what that is, and those opinions have been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum.