Its?

[alosha]

Caroline, can you imagine if we had acronyms for all of them? Hey, there's a NACG show tonight, wanna come?

Sita, My teacher did an info night to answer all of our questions in regards to what style she was teaching, and tribal in general. Not sure if that is the norm though. To leave room for personal expression, we are 'Tribal Style Belly Dance', as opposed to ITS though.

Great question! I'm curious to hear from some of the other tribal dancers.

 

[maria_harlequin]

Okay I could tell the difference between Tribal Fusion and ATS/ITS, but from just visually looking at them I would really struggle to tell ATS from ITS.
I'm interested if and how Carolena's statement effected the tribal community and the dynamics between the different styles?

for example do you feel the need to make clear what tribal style you teach or perform?
and how has it changed the way people teach tribal? is their more emphasis on clarifying what makes the styles different?

Sita

Yes, you really, really have to be clear what tribal style you're teaching. Despite the whole "community" and "sisterhood" of Tribal, there's actually a lot of rift and separation - a lot more so than the "traditional" world of belly dance.

For example, Carolena offers a General Skills certification course which you can take and be certified in order to teach the basics of the ATS format. HOWEVER, in order to go beyond this, there's another certification (ATS Teachinger Training) you can take but you have to committed to the ATS format only and nothing else. That includes Tribal Fusion. That includes Raqs Sharqi.

We're talking totally ATS, FCBD committed. And if my teacher planned to go onto level 2 in the Blacksheep format, Kajira apparently said that she can no longer do FCBD's ATS.

So yes, you HAVE to be clear on what you're teaching. It's fine to teach a mixture of styles to create what people call "tribal improv" or "tribal" but you can't just say you do ATS, Gypsy Caravan, or Blacksheep unless you've specifically trained with one of them.

And to tell the difference between ITS and ATS...you actually have to watch A LOT of ATS and "ITS". And you actually have to make sure that it's actually ATS you're watching and not just a group saying they're ATS when they've never actually had any ATS training. Taking classes also helps you to see the difference. Before I started seriously taking classes, it all looked kinda the same to me

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

For example, Carolena offers a General Skills certification course which you can take and be certified in order to teach the basics of the ATS format. HOWEVER, in order to go beyond this, there's another certification (ATS Teachinger Training) you can take but you have to committed to the ATS format only and nothing else. That includes Tribal Fusion. That includes Raqs Sharqi.

Hmmm.. I'm not sure I like this. I see the point about not wanting to blend improvsational styles, but to remove the opportunity to dance or teach Raqs Sharqi seems a lot like Carolena thumbing her nose at where her dance CAME FROM. I have a real issue with that.

I mean if Suhaila showed up and said "No more Egyptian dance for you -- it's all my format or you can't be in my program," well, as much as I like HER, there would be a vacuum in the room from how fast I left it.

And if my teacher planned to go onto level 2 in the Blacksheep format, Kajira apparently said that she can no longer do FCBD's ATS.

Is this just a pissing contest between these 2 women?

Is Gypsy Caravan involved in this argument at all? I'd like the opportunity to learn some ITS style dance, and gravitated a little more towards their dvds, so if they're not a part of this style-possessiveness, I'd rather go their route.


Is Gypsy Caravan ATS, or is that name reserved for Fat Chance style?

 

[Sita]

Yes, you really, really have to be clear what tribal style you're teaching. Despite the whole "community" and "sisterhood" of Tribal, there's actually a lot of rift and separation - a lot more so than the "traditional" world of belly dance.

For example, Carolena offers a General Skills certification course which you can take and be certified in order to teach the basics of the ATS format. HOWEVER, in order to go beyond this, there's another certification (ATS Teachinger Training) you can take but you have to committed to the ATS format only and nothing else. That includes Tribal Fusion. That includes Raqs Sharqi.

We're talking totally ATS, FCBD committed. And if my teacher planned to go onto level 2 in the Blacksheep format, Kajira apparently said that she can no longer do FCBD's ATS.

So yes, you HAVE to be clear on what you're teaching. It's fine to teach a mixture of styles to create what people call "tribal improv" or "tribal" but you can't just say you do ATS, Gypsy Caravan, or Blacksheep unless you've specifically trained with one of them.

And to tell the difference between ITS and ATS...you actually have to watch A LOT of ATS and "ITS". And you actually have to make sure that it's actually ATS you're watching and not just a group saying they're ATS when they've never actually had any ATS training. Taking classes also helps you to see the difference. Before I started seriously taking classes, it all looked kinda the same to me

Thanks that is really informative, and very interesting in terms of group and community dynamics. it must mean that you have to really be clear about what style you want to teach to take it those teacher training levels.
it's problematic. I can understand why people want to safeguard their art and make sure their name is not used to promote the opposite of what they are trying to achieve but at the same time it can seem so dogmatic, and restrictive. I particulalry don't see the harm of doing both ATS and raqs sharki.

Anyway thanks for the info. i did try Tribal but it didn't feel as natural to my body, each to their own. mind you i love raqs baladi over raqs sharki.
Sita

 

[Makeda Maysa]

ATS is reserved for FatChance, at least according to Carolena.

 

[maria_harlequin]

I particulalry don't see the harm of doing both ATS and raqs sharki.


I don't see the harm either! I do both.

 

[Mya]

Thanks that is really informative, and very interesting in terms of group and community dynamics. it must mean that you have to really be clear about what style you want to teach to take it those teacher training levels.
it's problematic. I can understand why people want to safeguard their art and make sure their name is not used to promote the opposite of what they are trying to achieve but at the same time it can seem so dogmatic, and restrictive.

Does anyone find this remarkably like the fusion - no fusion argument in raqs sharqi? why is it that we're the villains when we do this for sharqi, but it's tolerated for tribal! Anyone else find this to be a double standard?*slaps head*:doh::wall:

 

[maria_harlequin]

Hmmm.. I'm not sure I like this. I see the point about not wanting to blend improvsational styles, but to remove the opportunity to dance or teach Raqs Sharqi seems a lot like Carolena thumbing her nose at where her dance CAME FROM. I have a real issue with that.

I mean if Suhaila showed up and said "No more Egyptian dance for you -- it's all my format or you can't be in my program," well, as much as I like HER, there would be a vacuum in the room from how fast I left it.




Is this just a pissing contest between these 2 women?

Is Gypsy Caravan involved in this argument at all? I'd like the opportunity to learn some ITS style dance, and gravitated a little more towards their dvds, so if they're not a part of this style-possessiveness, I'd rather go their route.


Is Gypsy Caravan ATS, or is that name reserved for Fat Chance style?

ATS is reserved only for FatChance.

I kinda understand where Carolena's coming from even though I don't agree with her. She put a lot into the dance and I guess the only way to guarantee that you're going to be committed to ATS is that you only do ATS. Mind you this is only for people who want to TEACH ATS beyond the General Skills class and be certified. You can do ATS all you want and do Raqs Sharqi. Only if you want to be certified to teach ATS (not the general skills course) then do you have to give up other forms. This could be due to the fact that the AmCab dancer who suddenly decides one day that she wants to teach ATS. If Carolena didn't have her rules, AmCab dancer goes back with her certificate to teach. Despite all of her training, her ATS still looks "AmCab". This gets passed onto her students. ATS gets diluted even further. The movements are still the same but there's a "look" to it that isn't right. I guess if you choose to breathe and live only ATS, then this problem could be prevented.

As for Gypsy Caravan, I actually believe they have a pretty friendly relationship. They dance together every once in awhile. In fact, I think all of them are pretty friendly together...it just gets a bit off-putting when it comes to certification and who gets to teach what.

The thing with Suhaila though is that her format isn't really what I'd call a "dance"...it's all technique. But if there were some sort of Suhaila Dance "dance" like ATS I'm pretty sure she'd have some sort of rife where you wouldn't be able to get certified at other places. Also, Suhaila is more business oriented (not that it's a bad thing) and if you do this kind of thing that's prevalent in the ATS world...well, it's bad for business period.

 

[Aniseteph]

...For example, Carolena offers a General Skills certification course which you can take and be certified in order to teach the basics of the ATS format. HOWEVER, in order to go beyond this, there's another certification (ATS Teachinger Training) you can take but you have to committed to the ATS format only and nothing else. That includes Tribal Fusion. That includes Raqs Sharqi.

We're talking totally ATS, FCBD committed. ...

I can understand wanting to keep your creation pure and free from random fusion/dilution, but oo-er, what do they do, make you take an oath? random frisking for stray tell-tale sequins and glitter?!

 

[Sita]

I can understand wanting to keep your creation pure and free from random fusion/dilution, but oo-er, what do they do, make you take an oath? random frisking for stray tell-tale sequins and glitter?!

Hmmm an oath of loyalty eh?:think: what happens if you break it
*has an image of Carolena shouting "OFF WITH HER HEAD!"*

Sita

P.S No Mya you are not alone I too see the irony

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Does anyone find this remarkably like the fusion - no fusion argument in raqs sharqi? why is it that we're the villains when we do this for sharqi, but it's tolerated for tribal! Anyone else find this to be a double standard?*slaps head*:doh::wall:

Exactly. Actually, we should start using that as an example.

 

[Aniseteph]

Maybe some Tribal Fusion dancers think the format purists are anti-fusion villains too? I have no idea.

At least the tribal formats have an identifiable source of all truth, so to speak, and certification to disseminate The Word. Whereas it sometimes feels like getting to The Truth with raks sharqi is like nailing jelly to the wall, and then you are possibly missing the point by trying...

 

[nightdancer]

That is a darn good summary.

 

[Mosaic]

I think the ATS directive (teaching beyond the basics with or without certification) would be impossible to police & here in Australia if you said ATS, it can mean Australian Tribal Style. Australian tribal dancers have had a mix & blend when it comes to TS, GC, Black Sheep, and Caroleena have all held workshops here and dancers have taken those workshops gone away and mixed and blended, I doubt very much there is one 'pure' single style troupe/class around.... thus you have ATS (AussieTS) I don't know for sure, but I would think NZ is very much the same as Aussie, but at least they have a different abbreviation, but a few of their dancers come here to catch the workshops by international dancers from every style. At trhe end of the day, you have to acknowledge that every instructor no matter what style they teach, teaches differently, so the individual would end up with a blend when it comes to how they dance. I am sure most dancers if they dance tribal and classical know the difference and don't mix the 2. The emphasis is on most dancers, because there are always the rebels in any society. Blend the 2 styles and you have fusion, not Raks Sharki.

You could go round & round with this, and the issue would never be resolved. Anyway The way I classify in my mind, is Classical/Traditional Raks Sharki/Beledi, which could be Egyptian style, Turkish etc. Then you have Tribal Style -TS which covers all the tribal styles & fusion which covers fusion tribal style/goth/ bollywoodfusion etc.Where is bellydance? ... no where. I don't 'bellydance' I use my legs, arms, whole body, not just my belly:lol:.
~Mosaic

 

[lizaj]

I particulalry don't see the harm of doing both ATS and raqs sharki.


I don't see the harm either! I do both.

I do both..I tend to call what I do tribal-wise either ITS or choreo'd Tribal Fusion. I am quite happy not to call to belly dance in due deference to Raqs Sharki and not to call it ATS in due deference to Carolena but I think it's a shame. I can understand wanting to differentiate between those who followed the spirit of FCBD and the BDSS/RB type fusions that followed but I think GC and Black Sheep and Domba (as was) was in that original spirit.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Goth doesn't have to mean tribal. The best Goth dancer I know studies Egyptian style pretty much exclusively. (She also does region-specific and ethnic dances from North Africa and Central Asia, but no other belly dance styles.)

My Goth is more modern dance with some hip and torso movements. There's not much of a trace of Tribal in it.

 

[lizaj]

Goth doesn't have to mean tribal. The best Goth dancer I know studies Egyptian style pretty much exclusively. (She also does region-specific and ethnic dances from North Africa and Central Asia, but no other belly dance styles.)

My Goth is more modern dance with some hip and torso movements. There's not much of a trace of Tribal in it.

I was asked a weekend ago, why I wasn't t Gothla!
Someone knows I dance tribal so assumed I am a Goth! What!
I know Goths, I've taught Goths in High School. I pass young Goths everyday in my town. The fact that Goths may have taken to a variaton of belly dance has nothing to do with "tribal" as far as I am concerned. Goth is about lifestyle and beliefs. I dare say there are people who attend Gothla events who are not Goth but who like the image (it is indeed very stylish) and who are also tribal dancers.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I wish I could rep the last 10 posts!

This is exactly right, and I have been making noises in this direction since I heard that Carolena had talked endlessly about protecting ATS in her seminar.

The thing is, it is so easy for her to claim it and shout about it... but who can do it for ME? Especially when there are continued attempts to re-define it and widen the scope.

I also learned more about the need for distinction whilst talking to Tibal AND Fusion dancers at Raqs this year.

I thought oooH Tribal dancers are sounding to sound like me!:lol:

 

[Kharis]

I can understand wanting to keep your creation pure and free from random fusion/dilution, but oo-er, what do they do, make you take an oath? random frisking for stray tell-tale sequins and glitter?!

There's a staunch Raqs Starchy teacher over here who absolutely forbids a sequin or rhinestone or bead fringe in her costuming for both classes and performance. Heaven forbid that the twain twixts purity of Starchiness and sleazy old Egyptian FabCab should ever meet. Dear God, it would give her the vapours to see a student all a-twinkle. And she told me, a seasoned and sleazy old restaurant dancer, that she'd rather stick needles in her eyes before ever lowering herself to dance in an eatery.

 

[Kharis]

I do both..I tend to call what I do tribal-wise either ITS or choreo'd Tribal Fusion. I am quite happy not to call to belly dance in due deference to Raqs Sharki and not to call it ATS in due deference to Carolena but I think it's a shame. I can understand wanting to differentiate between those who followed the spirit of FCBD and the BDSS/RB type fusions that followed but I think GC and Black Sheep and Domba (as was) was in that original spirit.

I guess it's out of the question to wonder if there may be some kind of universal term for this dance? Some kind of Esperanto thingie that is less confusing than the fusion confusion of inclusions regarding fusion?